WEBVTT 00:00:00.005 --> 00:00:07.645 Welcome to this collaboration between Option Plus and Bitpunk.fm Unwound. 00:00:08.745 --> 00:00:13.625 I'm here with Josh. Well, here, I mean, on the internet, of course. 00:00:14.765 --> 00:00:23.325 We are separated by a very long transatlantic cable. I can't pronounce it. 00:00:23.685 --> 00:00:26.485 So welcome, everyone. Hi, Josh. hello. 00:00:26.485 --> 00:00:30.245 Let's uh let's get this kicked off there we go. 00:00:30.245 --> 00:00:39.105 Okay i'm tuned in that's right hope hope i won't drop out that's right right perfect yeah great to be. 00:00:39.105 --> 00:00:41.485 Here like it's great to uh been looking forward to talking to you. 00:00:41.485 --> 00:00:44.805 Yes me too uh we should uh 00:00:44.805 --> 00:00:52.485 do uh you know how people are making fun that's now now bitcoiners interview 00:00:52.485 --> 00:00:59.865 each other how uh how right there were about 100k bitcoin so we should do that 00:00:59.865 --> 00:01:02.985 at some point or maybe not but it. 00:01:02.985 --> 00:01:04.485 Hasn't hit 100k bitcoin so. 00:01:04.485 --> 00:01:12.105 Yes yeah they're not right yes and inflation is pushing the target farther and 00:01:12.105 --> 00:01:19.345 farther away 100k when Bitcoin started anyway we have a much more pressing matter 00:01:19.345 --> 00:01:23.365 here because the Albycalypse is coming. 00:01:24.765 --> 00:01:30.385 Yeah this has been what I think has been interesting about this is, 00:01:31.505 --> 00:01:38.265 yeah Albi kind of like and it's really you know it's not like their fault but 00:01:38.265 --> 00:01:42.285 they really onboarded a bunch of people everyone really enabled the, 00:01:42.405 --> 00:01:45.565 you know, as far as I understand, the podcasting 2.0 kind of boom here. 00:01:45.965 --> 00:01:52.045 But for, I think, mainly custodial KYC reasons and kind of regulations, 00:01:52.305 --> 00:01:54.825 they are trying to migrate everybody. They're basically rug pulling. 00:01:55.025 --> 00:01:59.425 They're nicely rug pulling everybody, which is understandable. 00:01:59.665 --> 00:02:03.385 And now it's like the tide has come out and now everyone has, 00:02:03.565 --> 00:02:06.845 now there's that kind of like a scramble to find a solution. 00:02:07.245 --> 00:02:10.225 And so I guess what's nice is you haven't, you've been 00:02:10.225 --> 00:02:13.065 doing this for quite a long time you've got a few 00:02:13.065 --> 00:02:16.105 books that talk about the different lightning options so you know 00:02:16.105 --> 00:02:19.105 it's like very curious to talk to you about this but i think i think 00:02:19.105 --> 00:02:22.365 there's a lot of a lot of questions i still see is like why maybe this 00:02:22.365 --> 00:02:25.505 is a nice place to start is like why can't people just 00:02:25.505 --> 00:02:28.345 keep using uh the key send which is 00:02:28.345 --> 00:02:33.465 the pod the main podcasting um which is the main podcasting method that everyone's 00:02:33.465 --> 00:02:40.105 using so like what's wrong with key send and why is that not going to work anymore 00:02:40.105 --> 00:02:45.125 or or i mean this is like yeah that's that's like the for some people i think 00:02:45.125 --> 00:02:48.205 that's the question is like what's you know yes yeah. 00:02:48.933 --> 00:02:58.393 Yes, so basically, let's maybe start what is going to happen and why people are using Albi. 00:02:59.833 --> 00:03:10.993 So you are listening to a podcast, hopefully using podcasting 2.0 app that can stream sets and boost. 00:03:11.573 --> 00:03:16.113 That means that there are some lightning payments involved per minute, 00:03:17.053 --> 00:03:25.233 which are actually batched but they're accounted for per minute and if we are 00:03:25.233 --> 00:03:31.573 exceptionally insightful or funny you can boost us and that's a payment with a message, 00:03:32.833 --> 00:03:41.733 on both sides on podcaster side and at least I think but especially on the listener 00:03:41.733 --> 00:03:48.113 side there has to be an integration between a podcasting app, 00:03:48.913 --> 00:03:53.333 such as Fountain or what are the podcasts? 00:03:53.773 --> 00:03:56.913 Podcast Guru, Podverse. Yeah, yeah. 00:03:57.093 --> 00:03:59.393 Yeah, these kind of breeze even. 00:03:59.733 --> 00:04:01.153 Breeze, breeze, yes. 00:04:03.593 --> 00:04:10.153 So the problem here is that if someone is making a podcasting app, 00:04:10.273 --> 00:04:14.093 they don't necessarily want to implement 00:04:14.093 --> 00:04:18.973 lightning wallet and some 00:04:18.973 --> 00:04:22.333 do fountain has an integrated wallet and 00:04:22.333 --> 00:04:25.173 breeze is actually a wallet that can also play 00:04:25.173 --> 00:04:32.213 podcast so it's kind of the other way around um so what these other apps have 00:04:32.213 --> 00:04:39.833 done especially those that are web-based is that they outsourced all the lightning 00:04:39.833 --> 00:04:45.073 mess and how payments are processed to Albi, which was like an API. 00:04:45.353 --> 00:04:50.413 You would do something like similar to whatever, Facebook Connect or something. 00:04:50.633 --> 00:04:57.113 You would sign in, kind of pair your client to your wallet. 00:04:58.296 --> 00:05:06.716 And the app would just basically over some API say, you know, pay this podcaster. 00:05:07.116 --> 00:05:08.796 They're cool and funny. 00:05:10.536 --> 00:05:18.136 And Albi would handle the payment. So they're turning off this. Oh, what is happening? 00:05:18.896 --> 00:05:20.656 Yeah, yeah. Explain, explain. 00:05:21.216 --> 00:05:26.496 Yeah. So I just set up this. We'll have to take this detour. But I just set up. 00:05:28.876 --> 00:05:37.436 So, I just set up today my cassette answering machine, and it is an analog cassette answering machine. 00:05:38.096 --> 00:05:42.916 I have an analog telephone adapter connected to a VoIP service, 00:05:42.956 --> 00:05:46.676 and it's got two cassettes in there, one 20-second tape loop for my outgoing 00:05:46.676 --> 00:05:51.116 message, and then this incoming message that's set for 30 seconds. 00:05:51.276 --> 00:05:55.436 And then people can call and leave voicemails. But it has this feature, 00:05:55.736 --> 00:05:58.876 I guess, where so you can do 30 seconds or three minutes. 00:05:59.256 --> 00:06:04.076 But if you hang up before the time is done, it just beeps fills that time. 00:06:04.276 --> 00:06:09.056 So I either have to listen to a 30 second beep fill or a three minute beep fill. 00:06:09.396 --> 00:06:13.816 So I've set it to 30 seconds and then but people then get cut off because they 00:06:13.816 --> 00:06:17.056 don't realize how short it is. But so, yeah, people, people are. 00:06:17.656 --> 00:06:19.156 So someone was leaving a message. 00:06:19.296 --> 00:06:20.616 Someone was leaving a message. Yes. 00:06:20.776 --> 00:06:22.836 An old school voicemail. 00:06:22.996 --> 00:06:23.216 Yes. 00:06:23.216 --> 00:06:30.976 I have also left you a message, so now I can hear it from the other side. 00:06:31.456 --> 00:06:37.096 It's basically the same except for the beeping that I don't hear when you hang up. 00:06:37.556 --> 00:06:41.656 Yeah, I have to look into that, but I don't know why it doesn't detect the phone 00:06:41.656 --> 00:06:43.596 hang up signal on certain calls. 00:06:44.336 --> 00:06:50.736 But yeah, anyway, I'll try to mute it when it comes on. 00:06:52.876 --> 00:06:57.076 All right um i i wanted it to be on i think. 00:06:57.076 --> 00:06:59.996 Uh okay yeah we can say it's fun we'll see like. 00:06:59.996 --> 00:07:01.736 Yes yes hopefully. 00:07:01.736 --> 00:07:06.056 Okay so yeah so i'm sorry i interrupted you yeah hopefully yeah all right all 00:07:06.056 --> 00:07:11.196 right yeah so um so let me try to summarize what you had because just because 00:07:11.196 --> 00:07:17.536 i because all some of this is also um i came in this news so we had albi that was acting as this api, 00:07:18.256 --> 00:07:22.036 for, you know, this is Albie now, not Albie Hub, like the OG Albie, 00:07:22.376 --> 00:07:23.416 was acting on this, this... 00:07:23.992 --> 00:07:29.172 API for certain podcast apps to integrate with so that they, 00:07:29.392 --> 00:07:34.272 as a podcast listener, I could have this account with Albi with some sats on it. 00:07:34.372 --> 00:07:39.572 Then when I boosted a podcast such as this one, it would actually make an API 00:07:39.572 --> 00:07:44.012 call to Albi and then Albi would do the lightning payment. Is that correct summary? 00:07:45.392 --> 00:07:53.172 So one of the features of Albi, unlike many other custodial wallets, 00:07:53.332 --> 00:07:55.652 is that it could actually do the key send. 00:07:55.852 --> 00:07:57.832 So what's a key send? 00:07:58.532 --> 00:08:04.872 So normally, when you use Lightning in any contemporary setup, 00:08:04.872 --> 00:08:07.292 except for Podcasting 2.0, 00:08:07.532 --> 00:08:13.612 you would actually pay an invoice one way or another. 00:08:14.012 --> 00:08:20.512 So you would get a string starting with LNBC, for example, 00:08:21.312 --> 00:08:27.372 that would encode the note pubkey, 00:08:27.832 --> 00:08:36.912 where to pay, how many sets, description, and some technical details, expiry, 00:08:37.532 --> 00:08:40.612 hash of the payment, and so on. 00:08:42.052 --> 00:08:48.372 So one feature of this invoice is that it is one-time use. 00:08:48.492 --> 00:08:54.132 It can only be paid once. So that's different to a Bitcoin address, for example. 00:08:54.792 --> 00:09:01.532 With Keysend, what you could actually do is you would only have notepub key. 00:09:02.396 --> 00:09:08.696 And you would just say over the lightning protocol, send some sets to this node 00:09:08.696 --> 00:09:14.016 and it would just go through without any invoices or anything like that. 00:09:14.016 --> 00:09:18.196 So that's like, 00:09:18.396 --> 00:09:25.416 it is very understandable that they have chosen this way for streaming sets 00:09:25.416 --> 00:09:33.916 to actually work because otherwise you would need to figure out how to get the invoice. 00:09:34.196 --> 00:09:37.716 But we will have to figure it out. So that's a problem. 00:09:38.496 --> 00:09:43.996 So why was Keysend, was there a use case? So basically, Keysend, 00:09:44.376 --> 00:09:48.356 you know, someone can just send you money, which is like an email. 00:09:48.636 --> 00:09:51.916 Like you can just send, you don't, once it is set up, you have the node pub 00:09:51.916 --> 00:09:57.156 key, you can just start pushing sats to someone's node without really their permission. 00:09:57.356 --> 00:09:59.936 So was there a use case for Keysend 00:09:59.936 --> 00:10:04.636 besides podcasting when Lightning was first created or what was the? 00:10:04.636 --> 00:10:10.856 I don't know, but there was all this talk about streaming sets, 00:10:10.856 --> 00:10:15.416 not only for podcasts, but for like charging electricity and so on. 00:10:16.536 --> 00:10:23.556 One important thing about Keysend is that you can also include some tags and values, 00:10:23.556 --> 00:10:31.596 which can kind of identify what this payment is for and include some more data about it. 00:10:31.596 --> 00:10:38.256 So that's how some services can, for example, identify when they run only OneNote. 00:10:38.996 --> 00:10:42.576 For many users, they can identify what the payment is for. 00:10:42.716 --> 00:10:48.716 So if you set up your value for value podcasting, you would probably do this 00:10:48.716 --> 00:10:53.076 key value thing with some weird strings there. 00:10:53.076 --> 00:10:55.896 So okay is that because you the 00:10:55.896 --> 00:11:00.676 there's a tool that you made that integrates with um seed lightning to look 00:11:00.676 --> 00:11:06.116 at the ln invoice i think uh to to see the message of like what the podcasting 00:11:06.116 --> 00:11:11.316 2.0 community calls a boostagram and is this is this the inside that is the 00:11:11.316 --> 00:11:14.476 metadata you're talking about where you would put some of that information. 00:11:16.036 --> 00:11:20.836 Uh it's in the description of the payment that's uh i think another thing uh 00:11:20.836 --> 00:11:25.356 it's uh it's basically some JSON-formatted extra data. 00:11:25.596 --> 00:11:27.716 I don't know actually where it comes from. 00:11:27.996 --> 00:11:33.356 List invoices on my node just pops it up. So I saw it and parsed it. 00:11:33.516 --> 00:11:40.876 So what you're talking about is I made this podcaster dashboard because I really don't like LND. 00:11:41.176 --> 00:11:44.196 So I run a core Lightning node, which I... 00:11:44.719 --> 00:11:47.579 Don't love i don't think it's 00:11:47.579 --> 00:11:50.879 a super great idea to write a lightning 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.939 note in c which can have like buffer 00:11:53.939 --> 00:12:01.539 overflows and and fun like that uh but i don't like lnd like it's uh they they're 00:12:01.539 --> 00:12:07.039 they're lost maybe we'll talk about it a little bit more later but okay so i 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:13.399 i am running a core lightning node and all these fancy tools for podcasting 2.0. 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:14.379 Were made for. 00:12:14.379 --> 00:12:15.859 For lnd so. 00:12:15.859 --> 00:12:16.579 Right so. 00:12:16.579 --> 00:12:22.419 I instructed my friendly ai model to code me a dashboard. 00:12:22.419 --> 00:12:24.419 Yeah and. 00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:27.059 Uh it's working it's pretty pretty neat so. 00:12:27.059 --> 00:12:30.079 Nice yeah it's like the i think the lnd 00:12:30.079 --> 00:12:33.339 one is called helipad and uh it is 00:12:33.339 --> 00:12:36.239 it is uh similar but i 00:12:36.239 --> 00:12:39.019 there i know the podcasting 2.0 people are 00:12:39.019 --> 00:12:42.259 using it with like a graphical there's a whole gui and 00:12:42.259 --> 00:12:45.399 they can see it on a web page so they sit there and will read the boosts 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.139 as it comes in and so this this is 00:12:49.139 --> 00:12:52.039 so the this data is then in part of the json it's 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:54.779 part of this json packet that's coming in with the 00:12:54.779 --> 00:12:57.679 message yes in the key 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.299 send payment yes so all right 00:13:00.299 --> 00:13:03.179 so so key send basically if i'm 00:13:03.179 --> 00:13:07.259 just trying to summarize here so keysend then lets you is is 00:13:07.259 --> 00:13:10.919 kind of seems to be geared to uh sending payments 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:13.639 without an invoice without an amount so i can just 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:17.199 freely send and it has this ability to ride data in 00:13:17.199 --> 00:13:19.899 the entire case on packet okay okay so that 00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:23.099 exactly so that's what we've had forever so 00:13:23.099 --> 00:13:25.959 now the thing i'm curious about because i i'm kind 00:13:25.959 --> 00:13:29.179 of coming in the lightning a little bit is okay so 00:13:29.179 --> 00:13:32.199 keysend existed but then there was this 00:13:32.199 --> 00:13:35.659 my then there was these other payment methods like bolt 11 and some other things 00:13:35.659 --> 00:13:41.319 that i'm probably skipping a few but then why doesn't keysend work for other 00:13:41.319 --> 00:13:45.379 like why do we make a why did the community make other lightning payment methods 00:13:45.379 --> 00:13:50.339 like what's wrong with keysend um these other ones yes. 00:13:50.339 --> 00:14:00.239 Uh i think uh One problem is proving payments and being able to pay only once. 00:14:00.933 --> 00:14:11.133 Um which is a nice feature uh by the way i was able somehow to uh to pay uh and. 00:14:12.133 --> 00:14:15.733 Bolt 11 invoice i was buying something and i 00:14:15.733 --> 00:14:19.853 paid more by paying simultaneously from 00:14:19.853 --> 00:14:23.593 two notes and i don't know how technically possible 00:14:23.593 --> 00:14:26.633 but actually the merchant 00:14:26.633 --> 00:14:29.773 wrote to me that you send us more money but there was an 00:14:29.773 --> 00:14:32.653 amount in the invoice it was not like a free 00:14:32.653 --> 00:14:36.353 invoice and I just scanned it and hit pay but it's 00:14:36.353 --> 00:14:39.173 timed out on one note so I paid it with another 00:14:39.173 --> 00:14:42.593 wallet and somehow the pre-hash 00:14:42.593 --> 00:14:45.413 got propagated and took the 00:14:45.413 --> 00:14:48.193 payment also as part of the payment from the first note as 00:14:48.193 --> 00:14:51.073 well so anyway so yes this 00:14:51.073 --> 00:14:54.373 this was the idea the reason I told 00:14:54.373 --> 00:14:57.573 you this story is that it's not perfect but basically 00:14:57.573 --> 00:15:01.293 this idea of signed invoices 00:15:01.293 --> 00:15:04.213 you can you can make sure that 00:15:04.213 --> 00:15:07.293 it comes from the note if you know the note key 00:15:07.293 --> 00:15:11.353 is signed the pre-hash 00:15:11.353 --> 00:15:14.593 pre-hash is basically a confirmation of 00:15:14.593 --> 00:15:17.653 the payment so if you have a pre-hash and 00:15:17.653 --> 00:15:20.873 an invoice that was signed by the note you have 00:15:20.873 --> 00:15:23.913 proof of payment which is useful because. 00:15:23.913 --> 00:15:28.293 You can you can prove that you paid the merchant there 00:15:28.293 --> 00:15:31.973 is an expiry which is also nice because when 00:15:31.973 --> 00:15:37.333 people want to hedge the exchange rate for example on the other side they want 00:15:37.333 --> 00:15:43.253 to make sure that you know you won't pay the invoice tomorrow when you wake 00:15:43.253 --> 00:15:48.593 up you need to request a new invoice with a new amount so it has all these nice 00:15:48.593 --> 00:15:50.893 features And I actually like it. 00:15:52.107 --> 00:15:57.247 With KeySend, you can think about it as a permanent address, 00:15:57.407 --> 00:16:03.267 like a Bitcoin address. You can send whatever amount, how many times you want. 00:16:03.547 --> 00:16:07.127 Invoice is one time. It can include an amount. 00:16:07.487 --> 00:16:10.967 It is signed. You can prove that you paid it. 00:16:11.387 --> 00:16:17.647 And it contains a description, some kind of identifier and so on. 00:16:18.427 --> 00:16:21.467 It can also include so and 00:16:21.467 --> 00:16:24.947 another thing why invoices became popular 00:16:24.947 --> 00:16:28.667 is that they support private 00:16:28.667 --> 00:16:32.027 channels and you can you can include 00:16:32.027 --> 00:16:34.987 route hints so you can say oh maybe you 00:16:34.987 --> 00:16:37.887 don't see how you can reach me 00:16:37.887 --> 00:16:42.667 through the lightning network here are some hints if you talk to this node they 00:16:42.667 --> 00:16:46.667 will know how to pay me maybe they have a private channel so you can you can 00:16:46.667 --> 00:16:52.467 actually add a little bit more into into a bolt 11 invoice which is what you 00:16:52.467 --> 00:16:55.967 call a lightning invoice these days okay um so. 00:16:55.967 --> 00:17:03.907 Um so that sounds so bolt 11 sounds like the typical kind of like coffee shop kind of use case. 00:17:03.907 --> 00:17:06.307 Or services use case. 00:17:06.647 --> 00:17:09.727 You, I want, you know, I go to get a coffee. 00:17:11.007 --> 00:17:15.747 I say I want the, you know, flat white, hipster flat white from hipster coffee shop. 00:17:16.267 --> 00:17:22.867 And they ring up the invoice. They present the QR code. I pay it, the lightning wallet. 00:17:23.227 --> 00:17:27.587 And there we go. Like, now we're gonna, okay. 00:17:27.907 --> 00:17:33.027 So then that's the, But the problem with Bolt 11, 00:17:33.487 --> 00:17:37.787 or not really a problem with Bolt 11, the problem with like invoices in general 00:17:37.787 --> 00:17:43.147 is that it's not a tip jar, right? So if I, once I put it up there- 00:17:43.966 --> 00:17:49.566 it has this one time i i did i did troll people on nostor pretty hard right 00:17:49.566 --> 00:17:54.566 before we talked and said uh hey definitely do not call me definitely do not. 00:17:56.926 --> 00:18:00.006 Definitely the volume is set really loud this would 00:18:00.006 --> 00:18:03.166 be this would be an inopportune time so it 00:18:03.166 --> 00:18:06.326 is it is uh i was set up all morning and 00:18:06.326 --> 00:18:09.286 no one i was sad that no one was calling and so i 00:18:09.286 --> 00:18:12.566 just had to put the proper beep and now uh okay so 00:18:12.566 --> 00:18:15.286 but yeah i'm glad i kept it to 30 seconds okay yeah so 00:18:15.286 --> 00:18:18.266 bald 11 so great for this kind of invoice i want you i 00:18:18.266 --> 00:18:21.986 somehow you know ahead of time to send this particular amount that's either 00:18:21.986 --> 00:18:26.666 arranged you know in a shop or a priori or something i it sounds like it has 00:18:26.666 --> 00:18:30.766 this but the keys the the routing thing i've seen be a problem before with key 00:18:30.766 --> 00:18:35.526 send because especially with new nodes that have very few channels uh You know, 00:18:36.526 --> 00:18:38.166 the bald 11 seems to fix this. 00:18:39.946 --> 00:18:45.786 And okay, so that's bald 11. But then the issue would be for podcasting is you, 00:18:45.886 --> 00:18:50.506 you know, you would have to either programmatically always generate a bald 11 00:18:50.506 --> 00:18:54.426 or somehow you'd have to have this back and forth where I want to send you this boost. 00:18:54.566 --> 00:18:58.046 I want to send you X amount. Then it makes me an invoice and I pay it. 00:18:58.306 --> 00:19:00.706 So it could work. 00:19:01.346 --> 00:19:04.126 There's nothing preventing it from working with podcasting. that's just like 00:19:04.126 --> 00:19:06.606 this kind of infrastructure doesn't work. 00:19:06.766 --> 00:19:11.706 You probably need some other server or something to facilitate these kind of payment flow. 00:19:11.786 --> 00:19:12.626 Which seems awkward. 00:19:14.966 --> 00:19:21.086 Yes, but it's what we'll end up doing. So let's go there. 00:19:21.166 --> 00:19:21.506 Yeah, true. 00:19:21.666 --> 00:19:25.426 Because this is where it leads, actually. 00:19:26.246 --> 00:19:34.946 Because the client apps really, like the wallets, the APIs, they don't support 00:19:34.946 --> 00:19:37.806 and don't want to support this key sent. 00:19:37.906 --> 00:19:41.626 For example, you can have one of the options for the, 00:19:42.966 --> 00:19:49.606 Albicalyps for the listener side or the payer side will be Cashu Mint, 00:19:49.846 --> 00:19:53.666 which can pay both 11 invoices. 00:19:54.786 --> 00:20:01.166 And in order for the payment to be atomic, you need the pre-hash thing because 00:20:01.166 --> 00:20:08.986 that's how the Mint can prove that it has paid the invoice and the token is spent. 00:20:09.406 --> 00:20:19.406 So there is no trustless way or trust minimized way to kind of avoid these invoices. 00:20:19.646 --> 00:20:28.066 Anyway, so I think like when you send me the podcasting 2.0. 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:32.009 Uh podcast episode and it seems like 00:20:32.009 --> 00:20:35.089 they are like uh the 00:20:35.089 --> 00:20:38.989 the people doing the the specification for 00:20:38.989 --> 00:20:42.509 value uh for value in podcasting 00:20:42.509 --> 00:20:45.449 they can kind of uh are at peace 00:20:45.449 --> 00:20:48.929 now with the fact that they will have to pay invoices 00:20:48.929 --> 00:20:51.789 or the they will have to find a way to to 00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:54.689 pay invoices and get the way with key send 00:20:54.689 --> 00:20:58.069 because they're not going to convince the 00:20:58.069 --> 00:21:01.289 whole industry of lightning wallets to 00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:04.649 start supporting key send because it's 00:21:04.649 --> 00:21:07.329 a much smaller group of people who are 00:21:07.329 --> 00:21:10.929 in yeah testing 2.0 so it's just not 00:21:10.929 --> 00:21:14.389 gonna happen um one of the criticisms for 00:21:14.389 --> 00:21:17.429 this is okay you need a little bit more 00:21:17.429 --> 00:21:21.729 back and forth like you need okay you need to ask 00:21:21.729 --> 00:21:24.629 someone to generate an invoice for you get it 00:21:24.629 --> 00:21:28.349 and then pay it and key send seems like 00:21:28.349 --> 00:21:34.549 more straightforward um that's what they were also talking about in the podcast 00:21:34.549 --> 00:21:45.229 uh it's true it is more communication but uh even like simple payment doesn't matter how it's paid. 00:21:45.769 --> 00:21:51.649 It's like for three hops for like if you pay through three channels, 00:21:51.649 --> 00:21:58.689 if I count it correctly, it is still 21 messages back and forth just to settle that micro payment. 00:21:59.561 --> 00:22:07.901 So like, okay, give me an invoice and pay it will be two messages more. So it's like... 00:22:07.901 --> 00:22:13.121 21 messages for a key... You're saying it's 21 application layer package. Oh, I see. 00:22:13.681 --> 00:22:19.221 For three hops because you need like... 00:22:20.681 --> 00:22:26.041 And I probably... It's more conservative. Maybe it's even more. 00:22:27.021 --> 00:22:33.861 Basically you need to add the htlc to every commitment transaction so that's 00:22:33.861 --> 00:22:38.521 like four messages back and forth and then you settle when the when it's paid 00:22:38.521 --> 00:22:41.761 you basically clear it out so, 00:22:42.661 --> 00:22:50.061 so it's chatty like lightning itself is chatty so adding like two more packets 00:22:50.061 --> 00:22:53.461 back and forth for like, give me an invoice and here's the payment. 00:22:54.041 --> 00:22:56.721 I don't think it's like that much difference. 00:22:58.321 --> 00:23:04.141 But yeah, it is a little bit more chatty, but I don't think this is such a big problem. 00:23:04.381 --> 00:23:08.121 We are like sending messages back and forth anyway. 00:23:08.601 --> 00:23:15.641 I see. But one of the things that came up out of this is that most of the podcasters, 00:23:15.841 --> 00:23:20.301 I think, are running their node on one of the either Umbral or Start9. 00:23:20.841 --> 00:23:25.761 And I think a lot of them are using Start9, which has this current feature of 00:23:25.761 --> 00:23:29.161 basically making, you know, people are running at home, their Start9 box is 00:23:29.161 --> 00:23:34.001 at home, and they're using Tor to expose external ports. 00:23:34.381 --> 00:23:41.041 So there was, for example, I even tried to look in to some of the Lightning 00:23:41.041 --> 00:23:44.141 other options, and there were some, 00:23:44.521 --> 00:23:48.881 it wasn't clear to me if it had to be like a clear net, like it basically had 00:23:48.881 --> 00:23:50.561 to be publicly accessible or not. 00:23:50.841 --> 00:23:55.441 So on these other, okay, so yeah, so, so the fact that it's behind TOR, it doesn't matter. 00:23:56.047 --> 00:24:03.387 No, no, it doesn't. It's a peer-to-peer network, so you can route through it even. 00:24:04.087 --> 00:24:08.607 You can even do only on messages now within the Lightning Network protocol, 00:24:08.627 --> 00:24:11.987 so you can ask another node to pass a message to you. 00:24:12.107 --> 00:24:19.467 So, like, I don't know in practice, but the theory of the protocol is that this shouldn't matter. 00:24:19.847 --> 00:24:26.207 And this, like this, well, one more thing. I don't think you are right. 00:24:26.407 --> 00:24:32.267 I think most podcasters actually use Fountain or something custodial for the receiver side. 00:24:32.467 --> 00:24:34.667 They just give the... Oh, okay. 00:24:35.367 --> 00:24:40.087 Yeah, that's true. Those that run their own notes, maybe you start line. 00:24:40.527 --> 00:24:47.387 But I think even from the podcasting 2.0, most of my guests on the podcast, 00:24:47.567 --> 00:24:53.947 I just tell them, send me your Fountain address or I'll be. It used to be I'll be. 00:24:54.367 --> 00:25:01.047 Uh, so yeah, I think now most of them just use a fountain as a, 00:25:01.107 --> 00:25:06.127 as a wallet, but it's a, it's again, a custodial wallet and we'll see how long 00:25:06.127 --> 00:25:07.847 they'll be comfortable with this. 00:25:08.527 --> 00:25:11.167 But that's, see, that's the, that's the concern, right? 00:25:11.227 --> 00:25:14.667 Is that you fountain is the, you know, you know, 00:25:15.107 --> 00:25:18.527 and, um, you know, I have nothing against fountain, but like fountain, 00:25:18.807 --> 00:25:22.567 you know, is people are going to fountain and then, I don't know they could 00:25:22.567 --> 00:25:26.627 get the knock on the door whatever i don't know what jurisdiction fountain is 00:25:26.627 --> 00:25:30.027 in but anyway they get the knock on the door and then they're gonna have to 00:25:30.027 --> 00:25:35.067 do a similar thing that albie's doing and they're like guys we can't let you i mean so. 00:25:35.828 --> 00:25:42.448 I think that's not even that. I think there is one more problem is that when 00:25:42.448 --> 00:25:47.028 you are running this service and suddenly you realize you have a lot of user 00:25:47.028 --> 00:25:49.948 funds, like when it really grows, 00:25:50.168 --> 00:25:52.608 you will just have other people's money. 00:25:52.768 --> 00:25:57.508 And I'm not sure that I'll be actually got a knock on the door. 00:26:01.628 --> 00:26:07.308 I'm not sure if it's a regulation thing. I think because they also had for a 00:26:07.308 --> 00:26:10.028 long time invite-only sign-ups. 00:26:11.168 --> 00:26:16.288 I think they were just not comfortable with holding other people's money, 00:26:16.308 --> 00:26:18.728 which is understandable. I wouldn't want to do that. 00:26:18.728 --> 00:26:19.108 Yeah, right. 00:26:19.288 --> 00:26:25.968 It's a note with private keys online on the internet. If someone hacks it. 00:26:28.228 --> 00:26:38.908 So, yeah. Yeah, but anyway, so what we were talking about before my... 00:26:38.908 --> 00:26:41.888 Oh, that it's going over Tor. 00:26:42.448 --> 00:26:47.868 Yeah. So now let's talk about how you can get the invoice. 00:26:48.048 --> 00:26:52.348 There are protocols for that, and this is what the conversation is about. 00:26:54.988 --> 00:27:00.708 So easiest... Oh, wait, something happened. And I think we are good. 00:27:01.468 --> 00:27:02.508 Yeah, it looks good. 00:27:03.596 --> 00:27:11.896 Uh, so, uh, so one, one way how to get the invoice is someone somehow sends 00:27:11.896 --> 00:27:15.976 it to me as a string, of course, not really usable for value. 00:27:16.216 --> 00:27:18.576 We're talking about, sorry, we're talking about ball 11 invoices. 00:27:18.816 --> 00:27:19.676 Ball 11. Okay. 00:27:19.796 --> 00:27:24.296 Ball 11. Okay. Okay. And so I'm the, I'm a, the situation you're setting up 00:27:24.296 --> 00:27:29.916 is I'm a podcaster and I want a ball and I have a ball 11 invoice and this is 00:27:29.916 --> 00:27:33.256 how, this is the picture you're painting. Okay. 00:27:33.256 --> 00:27:37.356 Got it uh okay uh maybe one 00:27:37.356 --> 00:27:41.756 uh intermezzo uh nostr 00:27:41.756 --> 00:27:46.776 basically has similar problem uh they don't use key send they use lightning 00:27:46.776 --> 00:27:52.696 address which which we'll talk about what it is uh but i think a good solution 00:27:52.696 --> 00:28:00.976 for value for value should be uh ideally the same solution that nostr ends up with uh Because, 00:28:00.976 --> 00:28:03.236 you know, people do podcasts. 00:28:04.136 --> 00:28:08.936 Like this integration of podcasting 2.0 and Nostra would be nice. 00:28:08.996 --> 00:28:17.456 I've heard that podcasting 2.0 are not very happy about Nostra or not super fans. 00:28:17.636 --> 00:28:20.796 Like, yes, Nostra is very boring. That's why I love it. 00:28:22.076 --> 00:28:30.016 Oh, yeah. But just saying that Nostra has the same problem. There are creators that want to be paid. 00:28:30.296 --> 00:28:36.476 And they use some kind of service. It used to be Albi as well on the receiver 00:28:36.476 --> 00:28:41.696 side and also on the wallet side. They're usually... 00:28:42.596 --> 00:28:45.996 Should be a way for the nostre client at 00:28:45.996 --> 00:28:49.816 least the twitter like clones um 00:28:49.816 --> 00:28:52.776 for the for the event kind 00:28:52.776 --> 00:28:59.616 one basically the the short uh message social network message um we should be 00:28:59.616 --> 00:29:04.616 able to pay the creators and send zaps each other so it's the it's basically 00:29:04.616 --> 00:29:11.636 the same problem um how do i get the invoice so yeah sorry just. 00:29:11.636 --> 00:29:15.036 To this to summarize the same problem meaning that the 00:29:15.036 --> 00:29:18.116 both of them are both nostr and 00:29:18.116 --> 00:29:21.116 podcasting 2.0 are unique in that 00:29:21.116 --> 00:29:28.376 the pay er is deciding how much to pay which is yes the com which is different 00:29:28.376 --> 00:29:33.036 than the coffee shop use case so in the so if we just generalize this we're 00:29:33.036 --> 00:29:37.536 talking about content creators in a value for value world the payer is deciding 00:29:37.536 --> 00:29:38.756 how much value to return, 00:29:39.056 --> 00:29:45.616 which is a different payment flow, because they can either send one sat or whatever, 00:29:45.836 --> 00:29:48.316 33 sats, but they're deciding. 00:29:48.596 --> 00:29:50.896 And so that's why we're saying, okay. 00:29:51.556 --> 00:29:58.416 That's one thing. And then another thing is that when you are paying in the 00:29:58.416 --> 00:30:02.136 coffee shop, the receiver is there. It's online. 00:30:02.456 --> 00:30:05.756 You are interacting with someone that is online. 00:30:07.476 --> 00:30:12.836 Which for a podcaster, okay, maybe you as a podcaster are not online, 00:30:13.056 --> 00:30:15.496 but you have a note that is online usually. 00:30:16.343 --> 00:30:19.363 Uh something is serving the 00:30:19.363 --> 00:30:22.783 rss feed something is serving the files so 00:30:22.783 --> 00:30:25.863 something is online but with nostr 00:30:25.863 --> 00:30:29.403 it can be you know my grandma and 00:30:29.403 --> 00:30:32.243 she went to sleep and she put her phone into 00:30:32.243 --> 00:30:35.443 airplane mode and she doesn't have a node or a server 00:30:35.443 --> 00:30:38.703 or anything so so uh this is 00:30:38.703 --> 00:30:41.483 a little bit trickier in the nostr side and it 00:30:41.483 --> 00:30:44.343 would be good if we found a way how to 00:30:44.343 --> 00:30:47.303 kind of solve this problem in the 00:30:47.303 --> 00:30:50.743 in the same way for both nostr and uh 00:30:50.743 --> 00:30:53.663 and value for value because right now i 00:30:53.663 --> 00:30:57.803 was like for example my first uh 00:30:57.803 --> 00:31:00.823 uh guest uh for for a 00:31:00.823 --> 00:31:03.903 podcast that i wanted to stream sets to 00:31:03.903 --> 00:31:07.583 uh in a in a 50 50 split um 00:31:07.583 --> 00:31:10.423 i just asked her uh give me 00:31:10.423 --> 00:31:13.303 your wallet of satoshi address because i thought you know that's what 00:31:13.303 --> 00:31:16.443 you put on nostril so that's how zaps work so i 00:31:16.443 --> 00:31:19.143 put it there but of course it doesn't work because wallet of 00:31:19.143 --> 00:31:22.063 satoshi doesn't support keycent yeah right 00:31:22.063 --> 00:31:24.923 okay so so uh yeah 00:31:24.923 --> 00:31:28.123 you know um right so so 00:31:28.123 --> 00:31:35.743 so so uh so the the receivers what i'm saying uh it doesn't necessarily have 00:31:35.743 --> 00:31:40.683 to be the podcaster that that is hosting the rss feed it can be a guest it can 00:31:40.683 --> 00:31:45.263 be uh you know So an editor, sound technician. 00:31:45.863 --> 00:31:47.903 Music artist, and so on. 00:31:48.623 --> 00:31:55.843 And, you know, we can't assume that they have a note online or we can assume, 00:31:55.983 --> 00:31:57.303 but then it would be custodial. 00:31:57.503 --> 00:32:04.363 So anyway, just a framing of what are the considerations. 00:32:05.183 --> 00:32:12.943 So how do we get the invoice? So if we come at peace that this is going to not 00:32:12.943 --> 00:32:20.003 use the KeySend flow, but invoices, we have several options. 00:32:20.703 --> 00:32:27.603 There is some third party service, some API that gives us the invoice. That is an option. 00:32:28.263 --> 00:32:37.303 There is a standardized API, which is called LNURL. that's in a form of a URL. 00:32:37.603 --> 00:32:39.003 It's basically a service. 00:32:39.643 --> 00:32:44.963 You send a request to it and you get a Bolt 11 invoice back. 00:32:46.047 --> 00:32:53.827 So that's one way. Of course, invoices are not very nice, not very user-friendly. 00:32:53.827 --> 00:32:59.587 They're quite hard to migrate if you want to, I don't know, use a different 00:32:59.587 --> 00:33:01.327 service or something like that. 00:33:02.307 --> 00:33:10.207 It would be nice if it would be possible to have it in a form similar to an email address. 00:33:10.207 --> 00:33:17.807 So that's what an Allen address is. So an LN address looks like an email address. 00:33:17.987 --> 00:33:19.787 So it's username at domain. 00:33:20.427 --> 00:33:27.347 And there is a way to look up the LN address. 00:33:27.947 --> 00:33:31.907 Actually, there are two ways that's starting to get complicated. 00:33:32.467 --> 00:33:39.067 But basically what it does right now, it returns an LN URL. 00:33:39.987 --> 00:33:47.647 So a url form and then you need to go to the ln url to get the. 00:33:47.647 --> 00:33:50.467 Invoice okay so this was the 00:33:50.467 --> 00:33:53.227 thing that i okay so i this was the thing i 00:33:53.227 --> 00:33:57.707 tried to look into and was found that it was i thought this was difficult to 00:33:57.707 --> 00:34:03.487 do with the start 9 tour situation so i looked up the ln yeah so okay okay so 00:34:03.487 --> 00:34:07.367 i looked up tried to do an ln address which is similar i think to like a nip 00:34:07.367 --> 00:34:11.287 5 you put a well-known JSON domain. 00:34:11.627 --> 00:34:16.767 Okay, so then it's like, okay, so I can get that. So it was easy to get, you know, that set up. 00:34:17.007 --> 00:34:22.347 But then trying to get the LN address for the client application to reach the 00:34:22.347 --> 00:34:28.407 server to get the invoice, that I think is, yeah, so how, so, 00:34:28.627 --> 00:34:30.767 okay, so, okay. That's where I got stuck. 00:34:31.307 --> 00:34:35.967 So this is a big problem and I think many more people will get stuck on this. 00:34:35.967 --> 00:34:39.327 So the flow, 00:34:39.487 --> 00:34:48.947 so what you just said, so basically the way it works is the wallet that wants to pay or the client, 00:34:48.967 --> 00:34:58.507 the podcasting app goes to the domain slash dot well known slash something. 00:34:58.507 --> 00:35:01.647 And it gets a json file and 00:35:01.647 --> 00:35:04.807 the json file says okay i know about this user 00:35:04.807 --> 00:35:11.247 and this is the lm url should you want to pay this user uh very similar to nip5 00:35:11.247 --> 00:35:18.527 nip5 is nostril verified address uh the the the structure is a little bit different 00:35:18.527 --> 00:35:22.087 i i think nip5 is one big json file for, 00:35:22.566 --> 00:35:29.666 all the users at the domain and ln address is a well-known i don't know ln address 00:35:29.666 --> 00:35:36.346 and then username and okay just just for one but the flow is basically the same 00:35:36.346 --> 00:35:37.686 so you go to the web server. 00:35:38.326 --> 00:35:44.506 This web server serves a static file it doesn't have to know anything about 00:35:44.506 --> 00:35:49.966 lightning so you can have an LN address on a totally dump machine where you 00:35:49.966 --> 00:35:52.766 just like put a text file. 00:35:53.126 --> 00:35:57.386 But then there needs to be something that speaks LN URL. 00:35:57.806 --> 00:36:02.026 It still doesn't have to be your note. So you can still have your start line 00:36:02.026 --> 00:36:10.646 somewhere in the basement and something that can get invoices somewhere else, 00:36:10.666 --> 00:36:14.226 but they need to be connected somehow. And this is not easy to do. 00:36:14.346 --> 00:36:17.106 So that's why i don't like this solution and it 00:36:17.106 --> 00:36:20.806 seems that people are kind of converging to this solution um 00:36:20.806 --> 00:36:23.526 so that this this was one of the 00:36:23.526 --> 00:36:26.386 reasons we started talking about this actually yeah and 00:36:26.386 --> 00:36:29.426 right and i was like a little 00:36:29.426 --> 00:36:32.386 bit complaining that this doesn't look right to 00:36:32.386 --> 00:36:38.586 me uh especially for the like the nostril use case or the you know not the podcast 00:36:38.586 --> 00:36:45.086 host but guests and sound editors and all the other people they might not run 00:36:45.086 --> 00:36:50.626 a web server with ln url and well-known file and, 00:36:51.386 --> 00:36:54.286 something that generates the invoices because. 00:36:54.286 --> 00:36:59.126 Basically so okay okay i'm glad you're mentioning because basically so the options 00:36:59.126 --> 00:37:03.966 if you self-host this is now you you need the web server which i think most 00:37:03.966 --> 00:37:08.606 podcasters have their own domain so that part was easy you have the start nine node They have that. 00:37:08.766 --> 00:37:13.306 The issue is this bridge software, which has this bridge gateway thing that 00:37:13.306 --> 00:37:17.326 has to be both publicly accessible and connected over toward the thing. 00:37:17.426 --> 00:37:20.946 So now you need, I don't know, this is like just some of, this is the weird 00:37:20.946 --> 00:37:23.226 component. And then for the Noster case, 00:37:23.732 --> 00:37:27.372 It's even more confusing because it's like, what do I do with this? 00:37:27.492 --> 00:37:30.972 And I think the third thing, which in some discussions I had with some people, 00:37:31.072 --> 00:37:33.372 is that this is basically what Albi does. 00:37:33.852 --> 00:37:37.572 Like Albi, I think, provides this service of converting. 00:37:37.992 --> 00:37:45.432 So does Wallet of Satoshi. You can get an LN address. 00:37:46.292 --> 00:37:54.252 One interesting thing that can provide you an LN address is a service like npub.cash, 00:37:54.412 --> 00:38:00.492 which basically creates an LN address and converts it into a Cashu token and 00:38:00.492 --> 00:38:03.012 sends it over to you over Nostra, 00:38:03.372 --> 00:38:06.292 which is nice because you don't have to be online. 00:38:06.292 --> 00:38:10.132 When you come online, you just receive your direct messages from the service, 00:38:10.932 --> 00:38:17.912 collect all the tokens and claim all the sets. So it's kind of semi-custodial, but you can do that. 00:38:18.252 --> 00:38:20.392 So it's like an inbox for... 00:38:20.912 --> 00:38:22.352 Yes, sets. 00:38:22.732 --> 00:38:27.212 A lot. So, all right. So just, okay. On that note, someone just told me right 00:38:27.212 --> 00:38:30.772 before this call that if I change this voicemail to three minutes, 00:38:30.952 --> 00:38:35.392 that they would probably start sending me Cashu tokens over audio to... 00:38:35.912 --> 00:38:36.332 All right. 00:38:36.672 --> 00:38:44.292 Yeah. So I have to dust off that I need... I was just before I was looking into how to convert. 00:38:44.872 --> 00:38:48.512 I need to make like a Twilio webpage or something that you paste it in. 00:38:48.672 --> 00:38:51.272 It converts it into the audio format. I can decode it. 00:38:51.592 --> 00:38:56.352 Sends it or calls me and then comes back. So, yeah. 00:38:56.732 --> 00:39:02.972 So, okay. So, but I think the subtext of all, because you've mentioned it a 00:39:02.972 --> 00:39:07.792 few times, but the subtext here is I think maybe you're thinking about some Cashu based. 00:39:08.832 --> 00:39:13.172 I'm wondering if there's some Cashu because you've since mentioned it and I've 00:39:13.172 --> 00:39:14.312 experimented with it as well, 00:39:15.770 --> 00:39:19.690 But I don't want to reveal your secret, if that's what you're leading up with. 00:39:19.710 --> 00:39:26.070 I don't know the secret yet, but yes, we can talk about Caching as well. 00:39:26.250 --> 00:39:33.870 What is nice about it is basically it's a way to receive and send sets. 00:39:34.450 --> 00:39:38.950 It is semi-custodial, but you can choose your custodian and you can run it. 00:39:39.170 --> 00:39:42.850 So you can do it with nPubCache. i'm not 00:39:42.850 --> 00:39:45.930 sure but but with these services uh there's 00:39:45.930 --> 00:39:48.810 an open source implementation you can have an 00:39:48.810 --> 00:39:52.130 allen address that sends you sets on your 00:39:52.130 --> 00:39:55.210 own Cashu mint so it doesn't have to be that you 00:39:55.210 --> 00:39:59.050 give your sets to a third party yeah but 00:39:59.050 --> 00:40:02.230 you don't have to be online and like there 00:40:02.230 --> 00:40:05.430 is some node that has to be online the mint or uh yeah 00:40:05.430 --> 00:40:08.370 right and and the relays that receive the token 00:40:08.370 --> 00:40:11.390 and so on but necessarily like 00:40:11.390 --> 00:40:14.910 your wallet doesn't have to be online uh what 00:40:14.910 --> 00:40:17.610 Cashu also allows you to do which is 00:40:17.610 --> 00:40:23.390 quite nice is it is possible to lock the token into a pub key because you can 00:40:23.390 --> 00:40:29.410 have a bitcoin script so they can like they can even be like pasted publicly 00:40:29.410 --> 00:40:36.950 if uh if the if they're locked to your public key. 00:40:37.350 --> 00:40:43.850 So basically, there are ways that how you can use this with Cashu and they're 00:40:43.850 --> 00:40:44.790 like super lightweight. 00:40:45.110 --> 00:40:48.530 So for like streaming sets, it's nice because it's a small string. 00:40:48.730 --> 00:40:53.990 You send it once and it's even like easier than a lightning payment because 00:40:53.990 --> 00:40:58.030 it's like just a string. You send it once and it goes through. 00:40:58.530 --> 00:41:05.130 But it's semi-custodial. It's not as standardized, and maybe the fatty people wouldn't like that. 00:41:05.270 --> 00:41:07.850 So, you know, we converge to Cashu and so on. 00:41:08.530 --> 00:41:17.750 But what is interesting, I think, in this case, is this integration with Lightning address. 00:41:17.930 --> 00:41:22.930 I think that could be used, and that's pretty cool. And on the payer side, 00:41:22.930 --> 00:41:25.610 we will talk about that a bit later. 00:41:26.450 --> 00:41:33.610 But it's also a way to have an API. So kind of to replace Albi with an API of 00:41:33.610 --> 00:41:35.590 a cashmere that can also pay the invoice. 00:41:35.750 --> 00:41:40.950 So for the creators of these apps, I think this is a very, very nice way to 00:41:40.950 --> 00:41:43.370 do it as well. Anyway, so... 00:41:45.247 --> 00:41:53.647 Problem with LNURL and LNADdress is you need a domain name, so you need to rely on domain name system. 00:41:53.947 --> 00:41:59.947 With podcasting, you kind of do, but maybe the editor doesn't want to rely on 00:41:59.947 --> 00:42:04.527 it because domains get censored, deleted, 00:42:05.567 --> 00:42:09.367 you forget to pay, and you already have a pubkey. 00:42:09.367 --> 00:42:18.267 So anyway, another thing is this web server that has to be online and be able 00:42:18.267 --> 00:42:22.247 to interact interactively with some kind of lightning node. 00:42:23.527 --> 00:42:31.147 So there's Bolt 12. Now let's talk about Bolt 12, which I like as a solution 00:42:31.147 --> 00:42:33.687 the most, to be honest, even more than Cashu. 00:42:34.347 --> 00:42:43.467 Uh the problem is uh we won't make it with both both 12 uh until uh albicalyps is what. 00:42:43.467 --> 00:42:46.487 Is it again in january or in march yeah they're 00:42:46.487 --> 00:42:49.467 saying january 5th is when is i 00:42:49.467 --> 00:42:52.427 i think january 5th is yeah so it's uh it 00:42:52.427 --> 00:42:55.147 used to be january 26th and then people looked it up and then 00:42:55.147 --> 00:43:01.107 it's actually and i i think there's like some nuance to what is actually collapsing 00:43:01.107 --> 00:43:07.467 but uh like it's not like uh yeah i can't remember it's slightly more nuanced 00:43:07.467 --> 00:43:12.607 but yeah it for a lot of people it uh it is going to affect something so so 00:43:12.607 --> 00:43:14.827 yeah so it's it's pretty quick it's. 00:43:14.827 --> 00:43:16.907 It's it's like the mayan calendar you. 00:43:16.907 --> 00:43:17.627 Yeah. 00:43:17.847 --> 00:43:20.307 Exactly. So this is... 00:43:21.547 --> 00:43:26.687 They... Yes. Thousands of years ago, they were anticipating this. 00:43:26.907 --> 00:43:31.067 And then just... The precision back then of analog calendars, 00:43:31.107 --> 00:43:33.207 you got to give them some slack. 00:43:33.607 --> 00:43:37.507 Yes, yes, yes. They didn't foresee 00:43:37.507 --> 00:43:43.587 Satoshi being a little bit lazy and releasing B2B a few years later. 00:43:45.627 --> 00:43:46.067 All right. 00:43:46.067 --> 00:43:49.307 Okay, so we have, so, okay, so this is, so Bolt 12, 00:43:49.687 --> 00:43:55.607 which is like the latest, I'll let you know what I know of it, 00:43:55.667 --> 00:43:58.507 which is not much, and then you can, so, so Bolt 12, 00:43:58.707 --> 00:44:02.887 I know, because it started, I think I started it here in detail in the summer 00:44:02.887 --> 00:44:09.327 when I was at Prague, and the thing, the advertising marketing that I know about 00:44:09.327 --> 00:44:11.607 12 is that, you know, it's like invoice based, 00:44:11.787 --> 00:44:14.427 but it has some nice privacy features that, 00:44:14.607 --> 00:44:17.647 and somehow, like this was the main thing that really 00:44:17.647 --> 00:44:21.887 bolt 12 there's two main things that these are my takeaways it has added privacy 00:44:21.887 --> 00:44:25.927 features although i can't speak in detail to what they are and it has the ability 00:44:25.927 --> 00:44:31.827 to unlike a bolt 11 invoice to be like a static qr code so you can reuse this 00:44:31.827 --> 00:44:36.607 qr code so these are the two marketing bullets that i know of bolt 12 that's basically the extent. 00:44:37.215 --> 00:44:41.175 Yes, they are right. Both of them. 00:44:41.715 --> 00:44:47.655 I learned about the privacy features again today because I forgot about them, 00:44:47.735 --> 00:44:49.735 but they're basically blinded paths. 00:44:49.995 --> 00:44:53.775 So it is adding privacy to the receiver side. 00:44:53.875 --> 00:44:59.995 The center side was already private. So it's basically like meet in the middle 00:44:59.995 --> 00:45:07.055 kind of payment and it's using only on messages and only on routing. 00:45:07.715 --> 00:45:12.015 So it adds privacy for the receiver, which is nice. 00:45:13.035 --> 00:45:26.595 The static QR code. So there are two types of Bolt 12 standard, how do you say it, 00:45:27.075 --> 00:45:31.215 URLs or QR codes or however it's encoded. 00:45:31.575 --> 00:45:41.055 One is called Bolt 12 offer that starts with LNO and that's basically the reusable invoice. 00:45:41.715 --> 00:45:49.215 And that basically says hello, I am a note and if you want to pay me, 00:45:49.475 --> 00:45:52.855 this is how you can reach me and I will give you an invoice. 00:45:53.195 --> 00:46:01.115 So it's the same thing that Alan URL does and Alan address does but. 00:46:02.635 --> 00:46:05.675 What is nice about this, you do all 00:46:05.675 --> 00:46:12.615 this chatting over the Lightning Network so you use only on messages peer-to-peer 00:46:12.615 --> 00:46:18.055 you can reach reach the note if it's uh if if it's uh you know behind tor and 00:46:18.055 --> 00:46:24.935 you are not it is a direct way how to ask a note to give you give you an invoice, 00:46:25.815 --> 00:46:28.855 uh so so when i realized this 00:46:28.855 --> 00:46:31.795 a friend of mine urza has written a 00:46:31.795 --> 00:46:34.695 nice uh software that is called pay 00:46:34.695 --> 00:46:37.495 to uh uh it's on 00:46:37.495 --> 00:46:40.315 ea to number two or 00:46:40.315 --> 00:46:43.635 pay to no t-o um okay 00:46:43.635 --> 00:46:54.095 it's a it's a command line utility for core lightning uh and you can say pay 00:46:54.095 --> 00:47:02.715 to and paste anything so alan url ln address bolt 12 It will offer anything, 00:47:03.115 --> 00:47:04.775 and it will figure it out. 00:47:04.935 --> 00:47:13.135 It will get the invoice over LNURL or Bolt12 or whatever displayed to tell you 00:47:13.135 --> 00:47:16.375 how much you can pay, what is the minimum, what is the maximum, 00:47:16.635 --> 00:47:20.535 write a description, and then it will figure out a way how to pay it. 00:47:22.068 --> 00:47:25.468 If this worked with the with the podcasting wallets 00:47:25.468 --> 00:47:28.468 we would be super happy because you would just 00:47:28.468 --> 00:47:32.548 paste anything into the valley recipient i 00:47:32.548 --> 00:47:35.728 see back and everything could 00:47:35.728 --> 00:47:38.528 be paid anyway so when i heard this that this 00:47:38.528 --> 00:47:42.108 is the flow that you uh that you basically ask 00:47:42.108 --> 00:47:45.628 the node to give you an invoice i 00:47:45.628 --> 00:47:48.748 thought okay let's create a rest service uh 00:47:48.748 --> 00:47:52.268 that does it for anything because this node 00:47:52.268 --> 00:47:55.868 to get the invoice you don't need any channels you don't need anything you can 00:47:55.868 --> 00:48:01.608 just send a message through the lightning peer-to-peer network and say hello 00:48:01.608 --> 00:48:07.108 node i have your offer give me an invoice and then this rest service would just 00:48:07.108 --> 00:48:10.488 give the let's say the podcasting. 00:48:11.968 --> 00:48:15.568 Wallet the client wallet, 00:48:16.828 --> 00:48:27.988 this invoice to pay the problem is that it's Bolt 12 invoice and they're not compatible so because, 00:48:29.388 --> 00:48:39.848 this is a way like you don't necessarily need to support Bolt 12 offers because 00:48:39.848 --> 00:48:41.768 you can convert them to invoices, 00:48:42.388 --> 00:48:46.068 with a fairly small piece of software. 00:48:46.348 --> 00:48:48.748 It doesn't have to be in the node, actually. 00:48:49.068 --> 00:48:52.628 It can be anything that can talk the protocol. 00:48:52.888 --> 00:49:02.168 So it can be like a public service, but then the problem is that your node needs to pay Bolt 12 invoice. 00:49:04.428 --> 00:49:11.168 But this is more common than being able to pay Bolt 12 offers. So it still might be. 00:49:11.328 --> 00:49:23.028 So Core Lightning supports Bolt 12, Eclair, LND, no, what is it? 00:49:23.168 --> 00:49:25.768 The Lightning Development Kit or something. 00:49:26.308 --> 00:49:35.408 Oh, okay. LND doesn't. So LND is the only widely used software that doesn't 00:49:35.408 --> 00:49:37.608 directly support Bolt 12. 00:49:38.588 --> 00:49:48.648 Even paying Bolt 12 offers. But there is a software which is called LNDK not 00:49:48.648 --> 00:49:53.408 to be confused with Lightning Development Kit which is I think LDK. 00:49:54.768 --> 00:50:02.068 LNDK which is this small piece of software that can talk to LND and figure out 00:50:02.068 --> 00:50:04.068 how to pay Bolt 12 invoice. 00:50:04.348 --> 00:50:06.368 So the payer side is, 00:50:07.071 --> 00:50:12.791 You can like, okay, you can't pay to like, 00:50:13.011 --> 00:50:19.571 let's say through cash or like, there are still many wallets that can't like 00:50:19.571 --> 00:50:22.291 parse and pay both 12 offers. 00:50:22.971 --> 00:50:29.851 But when you look at the nodes, the actual nodes that are underlying all these 00:50:29.851 --> 00:50:35.591 programs, there is all of them have a way to pay both 12 offers. 00:50:35.591 --> 00:50:39.051 Even like yes so 00:50:39.051 --> 00:50:43.211 strike uses LND on 00:50:43.211 --> 00:50:45.911 the background and they kind of pushed it and 00:50:45.911 --> 00:50:54.091 strike now allows to pay it and they even pay both 12 offers and they even have 00:50:54.091 --> 00:50:59.171 some kind of tooling how to test interoperability and so on and I think that 00:50:59.171 --> 00:51:05.131 they've been somehow involved also in this but yes they are using this LNDK. 00:51:07.311 --> 00:51:14.411 For the strike customers to be able to pay both 12 offers. 00:51:15.171 --> 00:51:21.431 So the payer side, like, okay, like really there are wallets that can't pay. 00:51:21.531 --> 00:51:28.931 I don't know, like cash probably cannot pay both offer, but it's not, 00:51:29.479 --> 00:51:33.519 It's wider than people believe it is, actually. There are many, 00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:38.659 many wallets that can actually pay these Bolt 12 offers. 00:51:39.619 --> 00:51:40.779 Receiving them... 00:51:40.779 --> 00:51:44.719 Many wallets, but not the podcasting clients yet. 00:51:45.299 --> 00:51:52.879 Yes, but they don't know how to pay Bolt 11 either. 00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:56.839 They can talk Albi API. 00:51:57.999 --> 00:52:00.799 Yeah, right. so i'm just i'm just yeah so i'm just 00:52:00.799 --> 00:52:06.079 so yeah so a lightning wallet um i don't know probably like breeze but breeze 00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:14.139 is also a podcast player but like uh yes um yeah okay okay so then okay so they 00:52:14.139 --> 00:52:20.439 can all pay it's all so you're saying to summarize what you're saying not all many of like the. 00:52:20.439 --> 00:52:22.419 Payer side is easier i would say. 00:52:22.419 --> 00:52:29.179 The payer side for bolt 12 offers is pretty well supported right now is the 00:52:29.179 --> 00:52:33.519 summary of that of what you're saying I think. 00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:39.819 That's my impression at least the node software like for major like lightning 00:52:39.819 --> 00:52:42.659 nodes there is a way to pay both 12 over that's what. 00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:43.779 I'm saying I'm. 00:52:43.779 --> 00:52:49.779 Not sure about the real wallets that people use I don't know you know. 00:52:49.779 --> 00:52:52.559 Like Breeze. 00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:54.299 Has LND in it but. 00:52:54.299 --> 00:52:56.659 Probably not LNDK. 00:52:56.939 --> 00:53:01.719 I don't know if I can actually try. Let's see. While we're talking, 00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:04.739 I'll try to pay some offer. 00:53:05.839 --> 00:53:12.059 This is also... I guess the other thing is that I think there are, 00:53:12.967 --> 00:53:19.107 it's uh man it's just there's there's other categories of users right where 00:53:19.107 --> 00:53:22.567 there's i think a lot of users who really aren't you know are mainly in the 00:53:22.567 --> 00:53:28.387 u.s i mean you i mean is like strike even available in like i've used strike 00:53:28.387 --> 00:53:32.547 in europe to pay things but ken without doing i don't think. 00:53:32.547 --> 00:53:35.267 I don't think i can register for strike. 00:53:35.267 --> 00:53:42.547 That's i don't think the google play store has a strike i thought that they 00:53:42.547 --> 00:53:47.167 did something where they went in to europe and i think they got they left or something or yeah. 00:53:47.167 --> 00:53:52.927 That's that's the only reasonable thing to do if you are offering this kind of. 00:53:52.927 --> 00:53:54.467 Service right yeah current. 00:53:54.467 --> 00:53:59.667 Regulations i don't but then it's also kyc and. 00:53:59.667 --> 00:54:02.747 So then so then i have a right so 00:54:02.747 --> 00:54:05.807 i would say there's like categories of even bitcoin users right 00:54:05.807 --> 00:54:09.427 so you have if you take like the cypherpunk kyc 00:54:09.427 --> 00:54:12.327 free kind of people who who i think 00:54:12.327 --> 00:54:15.167 a lot of this we're talking about those kind of options but 00:54:15.167 --> 00:54:20.147 then if you in the u.s i would say there's a lot of just strike users who um 00:54:20.147 --> 00:54:24.667 are very whatever they it's kyc but they're comfortable using strike but what's 00:54:24.667 --> 00:54:29.747 the equivalent like strike wallet for europeans that is like is there something 00:54:29.747 --> 00:54:34.507 that is not or is there no middle ground I'm. 00:54:34.507 --> 00:54:35.387 Not much into. 00:54:36.147 --> 00:54:38.727 So I don't know like. 00:54:38.727 --> 00:54:44.647 A lot of people use wallet of Satoshi which is a custodial solution oh there 00:54:44.647 --> 00:54:49.987 is actually there's a any coin the Czech exchange has a pretty, 00:54:50.767 --> 00:54:54.127 widely used wallet actually which is called, 00:54:55.967 --> 00:54:58.427 Bitlify I don't know, 00:54:59.598 --> 00:55:01.118 Yes, Bitlify, I think. 00:55:01.498 --> 00:55:02.598 Okay, I think I've heard of that. 00:55:03.558 --> 00:55:08.658 That's like Venmo. You can also pair it with a phone number and you can receive 00:55:08.658 --> 00:55:10.418 Sats on your phone number. 00:55:12.218 --> 00:55:16.478 Okay, so the two biggest, I think, in the US are, at least I hear people using 00:55:16.478 --> 00:55:23.458 our Cash App and Strike, which allows a KYC option to then send in Sats. 00:55:24.018 --> 00:55:31.098 But still, does it have an API? like somehow like you can send a boost probably 00:55:31.098 --> 00:55:34.958 by clicking send but like you can't stream sets really. 00:55:35.118 --> 00:55:39.818 Correct. Yeah I don't know how it well it gives you a strike for example has 00:55:39.818 --> 00:55:46.578 a LN address so you can be like for receiving. For receiving yeah. 00:55:47.158 --> 00:55:51.918 But for sending like when you want to stream sets I don't think it can stream set. I don't know. 00:55:52.158 --> 00:56:00.298 You can boost you can well you can send I mean I've used it for Nostra payments yes Nostra zaps but. 00:56:00.298 --> 00:56:02.278 That's just a bolt 11. 00:56:02.278 --> 00:56:06.038 Yeah yes but I don't think it 00:56:06.038 --> 00:56:12.238 can do yeah I don't think it does key send so this is the this is the so. 00:56:12.238 --> 00:56:16.098 So yeah so back to bolt 12. 00:56:16.098 --> 00:56:17.478 I personally. 00:56:17.478 --> 00:56:25.658 Think this would be the best solution for both Nostra and value for value, 00:56:26.478 --> 00:56:34.138 just not right now because it still needs the magical lightning 18 months to 00:56:34.138 --> 00:56:36.258 be implemented widely. Right. 00:56:36.998 --> 00:56:42.698 Yeah. But the question I have about 12 is, okay, so say you're, how does it fix, 00:56:43.441 --> 00:56:52.181 How does it fix the Nostro grandma use case where I onboarded grandma and she 00:56:52.181 --> 00:56:54.401 wants to receive, she gets to receive. 00:56:54.501 --> 00:56:57.781 So how does BOL12 change that situation for her? 00:56:57.841 --> 00:57:03.821 For offline receiving, it doesn't change. She would need to use some service 00:57:03.821 --> 00:57:09.021 that would hold the sets for her and convert it to cash or send it to her. 00:57:09.121 --> 00:57:09.441 Yeah. 00:57:09.801 --> 00:57:13.661 Or a custodial wallet. So like… Like, 00:57:13.821 --> 00:57:19.281 it doesn't make things work, it just enables more use cases for people who don't 00:57:19.281 --> 00:57:27.501 want their own domain or have the nodes behind Tor on like in the basement and things like this. 00:57:29.101 --> 00:57:38.781 So, so the thing is, so in order to be able to pay over Lightning, 00:57:39.241 --> 00:57:42.361 you already need to be able to talk the lightning protocol 00:57:42.361 --> 00:57:45.341 like something needs to you know pay the invoice even 00:57:45.341 --> 00:57:48.281 for key sent you need to be able to 00:57:48.281 --> 00:57:51.681 send messages and actually most nodes allow 00:57:51.681 --> 00:57:54.641 even over api to to uh 00:57:54.641 --> 00:57:57.541 they allow you to send like onion messages or 00:57:57.541 --> 00:58:00.501 normal messages over the lightning network so if you 00:58:00.501 --> 00:58:05.901 are sending sets over lightning something already speaks this protocol and this 00:58:05.901 --> 00:58:16.401 interactive uh so using bolt 12 for getting the invoice is like you don't add 00:58:16.401 --> 00:58:18.121 another layer of complexity. 00:58:18.121 --> 00:58:21.261 You don't need port 443 somewhere. 00:58:21.661 --> 00:58:27.781 Like if you are able to receive payment, that means someone is able to somehow 00:58:27.781 --> 00:58:30.161 reach you through the Lightning Network. 00:58:30.381 --> 00:58:37.561 So I think this is like, it's getting the payment information close to the node. 00:58:38.238 --> 00:58:41.098 And you already need this working in order to be able to. 00:58:41.398 --> 00:58:47.698 So that's what I'm saying that adding like LN address with DNS and then pointing 00:58:47.698 --> 00:58:49.758 to LN URL with the web server. 00:58:50.018 --> 00:58:58.198 It just adds so much complexity that is like really extra. 00:58:58.378 --> 00:59:01.458 Like you don't need it to receive payment. 00:59:01.738 --> 00:59:03.438 So that's my problem with it. 00:59:03.638 --> 00:59:06.778 Okay. So let me try to. so with both 00:59:06.778 --> 00:59:10.158 with bald 11 which is the typical lightning invoice the 00:59:10.158 --> 00:59:13.898 the way to pay that is we need this gateway dns we 00:59:13.898 --> 00:59:18.698 need to have this ln at we need to get an ln address one way to get an ln address 00:59:18.698 --> 00:59:24.238 is through ln url or i'm sorry one way to get an url is to get an ln address 00:59:24.238 --> 00:59:28.438 which needs the domain name and needs this gateway thing to reach back to the 00:59:28.438 --> 00:59:30.478 node so it needs slightly more infrastructure. 00:59:30.718 --> 00:59:38.878 Bolt 12 simplifies this by eliminating the kind of like Web 2 technologies and 00:59:38.878 --> 00:59:41.018 does everything over the Lightning network. 00:59:41.418 --> 00:59:41.938 Yes. 00:59:42.058 --> 00:59:43.838 To allow the... Okay. That makes sense. 00:59:43.838 --> 00:59:44.818 Which you need to use anyway. 00:59:44.958 --> 00:59:45.898 Which you need to use anyway. Okay. 00:59:46.118 --> 00:59:46.618 Yes. 00:59:46.778 --> 00:59:52.218 I got it. So then let's... Okay. So that's now clear to me. 00:59:52.638 --> 00:59:55.998 But let's step back even further because all of... There's... 00:59:55.998 --> 00:59:59.218 Essentially to participate in Lightning, you 00:59:59.218 --> 01:00:01.998 have to have a node right this these are the you need to have 01:00:01.998 --> 01:00:05.298 channels open you have to have a node with channels and 01:00:05.298 --> 01:00:08.398 i think so there's i this 01:00:08.398 --> 01:00:11.238 is the i think this is like uh what 01:00:11.238 --> 01:00:16.238 this albi apocalypse is doing is upgrading everybody's lightning knowledge right 01:00:16.238 --> 01:00:20.918 because all of this was just nicely solved by this third party which was one 01:00:20.918 --> 01:00:24.438 of the options you could we could just go back to some other third party right 01:00:24.438 --> 01:00:28.578 and now we're all trying to figure it out so if i we step it But then there's 01:00:28.578 --> 01:00:29.638 solutions like, for example, 01:00:29.878 --> 01:00:33.318 Breeze, which like runs a node on a phone somehow. 01:00:34.099 --> 01:00:34.519 Yes. 01:00:34.779 --> 01:00:39.919 So, so how can we talk about that? Cause you wrote about that a lot in one of your books. 01:00:40.059 --> 01:00:44.039 And so why isn't this because, uh, so, you know, for example, 01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:46.839 a lot of the podcasters onboarding people to nodes, you know, 01:00:46.879 --> 01:00:50.499 they go through channel management, they're helping people open channels and, 01:00:50.759 --> 01:00:53.219 you know, they're trying to like get people to do the hard way. 01:00:53.419 --> 01:00:56.479 So what if I, you know, why can't I just breeze? 01:00:56.799 --> 01:01:00.019 Why can't people, what's the breeze alternative is like, Like, 01:01:00.099 --> 01:01:01.939 look, my phone's always connected to the internet. 01:01:02.859 --> 01:01:07.779 You know, is this not an option or what's the status with? 01:01:08.019 --> 01:01:14.319 It could be an option, but yeah, is it always connected to the internet? 01:01:14.319 --> 01:01:18.579 Like when you take a flight, you're probably, you will miss some payments. 01:01:18.859 --> 01:01:24.939 Then it needs to wake you up with like a push notification or something when 01:01:24.939 --> 01:01:27.199 the payment is received. 01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:35.019 Um but i i think there are there are ways to do it uh so um. 01:01:35.019 --> 01:01:37.759 Okay so then my so my mind i'm just so it's 01:01:37.759 --> 01:01:40.479 like all right so we can you basically need something or just run you 01:01:40.479 --> 01:01:45.059 need some daemon running 24 you need a server you basically need a server and 01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:52.039 so the server hat hat the architecturally the server either has to be on a like 01:01:52.039 --> 01:01:56.279 machine that's running in a basement if you're like or a digital ocean kind 01:01:56.279 --> 01:01:59.059 of thing you have to be running this you're running it on your phone, 01:01:59.579 --> 01:02:04.279 you can do it but it has all the problems of constant battery drain how like 01:02:04.279 --> 01:02:05.839 this is just like not meant for mobile use, 01:02:06.579 --> 01:02:13.679 At the end of the day, we have a kind of like a peer-to-peer model at the lightning level layer. 01:02:13.899 --> 01:02:17.439 That's all peer-to-peer. But in order to send things, we have a client-server 01:02:17.439 --> 01:02:23.739 model where the apps are clients and they need to somehow communicate to this 01:02:23.739 --> 01:02:26.139 peer-to-peer layer to get it to, you know, 01:02:26.739 --> 01:02:28.919 to actually push the payment through. 01:02:29.379 --> 01:02:30.599 Yes. Okay. 01:02:30.699 --> 01:02:35.259 So that's where I think friction is coming in. because at least for me, 01:02:35.379 --> 01:02:38.659 because it's like you think about it peer to peer and that's what the Bitcoin 01:02:38.659 --> 01:02:42.159 podcasters and things want to throw around decentralized peer to peer. 01:02:42.319 --> 01:02:44.359 And that is true at that layer. 01:02:44.739 --> 01:02:50.539 But for humans and AI bots, which haven't started, I guess, paying each other lightning. 01:02:50.799 --> 01:02:55.679 Why can't, has the AI not, have we asked not AI to like start making these payments? 01:02:56.259 --> 01:03:02.359 Like why are we talking about this and not having AI do these payments for us? 01:03:02.359 --> 01:03:04.459 This is this is quite i have. 01:03:04.459 --> 01:03:08.319 I i have consulted heavily with ai on this. 01:03:08.319 --> 01:03:11.799 Yeah so what does ai what does ai say has it not is 01:03:11.799 --> 01:03:14.899 it are we is it not at the level of solving lightning 01:03:14.899 --> 01:03:22.299 problems yet no no game up okay okay so okay so i think that's that to me that 01:03:22.299 --> 01:03:26.639 is where i think the friction is because it's like you you still have this client 01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:31.479 server model and you have a phone which is the client and it has to connect 01:03:31.479 --> 01:03:33.539 to some server to send this payment. 01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:38.359 Then the question basically at the big layer is that are you running the server 01:03:38.359 --> 01:03:40.439 or is a third party running that server? 01:03:40.979 --> 01:03:47.579 And then that kind of drives a lot of these like payment options and stuff like this. 01:03:47.939 --> 01:03:52.759 Because if everybody in the world where everyone is running a node, 01:03:53.179 --> 01:03:55.539 then keysend basically works just fine. 01:03:56.019 --> 01:04:00.639 Like that's maybe another option. If everyone just runs a node, 01:04:00.839 --> 01:04:04.419 then keysend wouldn't have to actually change because then everyone, 01:04:04.619 --> 01:04:08.499 for any, it's a linear scaling, everyone has a node, 01:04:08.859 --> 01:04:12.399 everybody has a client, then it works perfectly. 01:04:12.399 --> 01:04:20.159 So it is, I think, reasonable to ask the podcasters to run their notes. 01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:24.599 But if we want to kick this off, I think the listeners, like, 01:04:24.839 --> 01:04:28.359 they just install something like whatever. 01:04:29.239 --> 01:04:29.499 Fountain. 01:04:30.339 --> 01:04:35.259 But Fountain supports KeySend. So the problem is with the other ones. 01:04:36.998 --> 01:04:44.838 Maybe everyone just has to switch to Fountain, but still custodial, okay? I love Fountain. 01:04:45.378 --> 01:04:48.478 Yeah, no, no, but Fountain is that... So Fountain, in my mind, 01:04:48.538 --> 01:04:49.958 the way I'm thinking about this is, 01:04:50.078 --> 01:04:53.998 okay, I want to use Fountain, but what I'm doing in order to send a payment 01:04:53.998 --> 01:05:00.378 through Fountain is I'm loading up a client in the client server model and asking 01:05:00.378 --> 01:05:04.918 Fountain via Fountain's whatever API, REST service, to make this payment. 01:05:05.038 --> 01:05:05.578 Right? 01:05:05.578 --> 01:05:08.238 Right, so this is, so Fountain is then- It's not beer to beer. 01:05:08.478 --> 01:05:08.538 Yes. 01:05:08.638 --> 01:05:11.798 Yeah, exactly. So, you know, they could be, yeah. 01:05:12.118 --> 01:05:19.258 So, but, you know, I guess what's then frustrating to some people then is like, 01:05:19.858 --> 01:05:24.258 okay, we're in this, you know, if this was like normies, non-Bitcoin people, 01:05:24.738 --> 01:05:28.738 then, you know, you definitely just third party this and make it super easy. 01:05:28.938 --> 01:05:32.818 But then it's like, all right, people are, I think there's, I think people get 01:05:32.818 --> 01:05:35.098 frustrated is like, all right, we're already supposed to be Bitcoiners, 01:05:35.098 --> 01:05:40.738 But then it's like those Bitcoiners can't, you know, they're not running nodes, 01:05:41.158 --> 01:05:42.438 even Bitcoin core nodes. 01:05:42.778 --> 01:05:46.998 And then, you know, so then it's like, so now, so if on one sense, 01:05:47.118 --> 01:05:51.818 it feels a little bit lame if like, you know, we're here, we are trying to make 01:05:51.818 --> 01:05:53.078 Bitcoin podcasts or whatever. 01:05:53.338 --> 01:05:56.938 And then everyone's just third partying, sending the Bitcoin payment. 01:05:57.318 --> 01:06:01.178 So it's kind of like, well, what do we, like, what did we, I don't, 01:06:01.338 --> 01:06:04.078 did we win? You know, like, cause yeah. 01:06:04.078 --> 01:06:04.178 Yeah. 01:06:04.875 --> 01:06:11.375 Well, Nostra is like that, you know, Bitcoiners, but they use Primal wallets, 01:06:11.375 --> 01:06:14.095 which ask for your name and whatever. 01:06:16.215 --> 01:06:19.275 And so, yeah, people are lazy. 01:06:19.635 --> 01:06:22.955 Like, I think we need to support both use cases. 01:06:23.195 --> 01:06:32.695 Like, I don't like, like, even, you know, my mom is a Bitcoiner and she doesn't run her own node. 01:06:32.695 --> 01:06:42.215 I would gladly run it for her, but she wants to interact with this ecosystem. She has Fountain. 01:06:42.555 --> 01:06:48.895 She listens to podcasts with Value for Value, but she's not going to run her own node. 01:06:49.915 --> 01:06:56.975 So one solution that is kind of in the middle is this Uncle Jim model that I 01:06:56.975 --> 01:07:01.575 would run a node for my whole family, basically. 01:07:02.715 --> 01:07:10.375 Which is the Cashu model. Then the Uncle Jims can serve very extended families as well. 01:07:10.375 --> 01:07:13.915 Yeah, so let's talk about that. Yeah, because this, you know, 01:07:14.015 --> 01:07:20.355 Albi Hub, which is, I think you can run without sending an email. 01:07:20.515 --> 01:07:22.135 You don't need an Albi account. I have not. 01:07:22.535 --> 01:07:27.395 But it now has this feature to do this friends and family model somehow built in. 01:07:28.155 --> 01:07:32.235 And what I kind of want to explore this a little bit, 01:07:32.235 --> 01:07:35.035 because i think this is perhaps the 01:07:35.035 --> 01:07:39.515 better model and it doesn't have to be with albi hub but the the uncle jim model 01:07:39.515 --> 01:07:46.575 because um what i think is also different you know so like everyone i don't 01:07:46.575 --> 01:07:50.415 know i don't know you know especially in bitcoin there's not like a random person 01:07:50.415 --> 01:07:53.495 out there who's a bitcoiner who like has doesn't. 01:07:54.456 --> 01:07:58.996 Probably talk to someone, talk someone's ear off about Bitcoin in the physical space. 01:07:59.196 --> 01:08:05.376 You know, like they're in the real world, a networked of node person they're 01:08:05.376 --> 01:08:06.956 communicating with that. 01:08:07.136 --> 01:08:09.336 And they're making, you know, we're making little anarchist, 01:08:09.436 --> 01:08:12.396 little, you know, parallel societies around. 01:08:12.616 --> 01:08:18.676 So this, I kind of like this little model of like, to me, it's almost like a 01:08:18.676 --> 01:08:21.156 bulletin board service, like an old school BBS. 01:08:21.156 --> 01:08:24.056 You know you would call you'd have your old one 01:08:24.056 --> 01:08:27.196 you check your messages and then there was like it's almost i guess 01:08:27.196 --> 01:08:30.516 it's also like a mastodon style um thing 01:08:30.516 --> 01:08:33.516 where you're having this little network of nodes 01:08:33.516 --> 01:08:36.256 i guess it's not decentralized it's distributed not decentralized i 01:08:36.256 --> 01:08:39.116 can't remember which way but yeah so this model i 01:08:39.116 --> 01:08:42.616 think is nicer because then you 01:08:42.616 --> 01:08:45.596 have yeah the only problem then you potentially could 01:08:45.596 --> 01:08:48.376 be holding you're you're back into like you're 01:08:48.376 --> 01:08:51.476 holding other people's money etc etc but like i don't 01:08:51.476 --> 01:08:54.396 know at some point um it's in 01:08:54.396 --> 01:08:58.096 someone's self-interest for them to become the 01:08:58.096 --> 01:09:03.636 node the the uncle jim for another group right we're there yes so i don't know 01:09:03.636 --> 01:09:09.036 this one feels the only problem with it is that i guess you can't you know you 01:09:09.036 --> 01:09:12.556 people just have to volunteerism it's the it's the same problem with like uh 01:09:12.556 --> 01:09:15.576 self-organizing groups it requires small you know, 01:09:15.956 --> 01:09:20.916 volunteer leaders-ish to like kind of do this for small groups, but so yeah. 01:09:21.636 --> 01:09:29.176 Yes. And there's also a kind of middle ground such as FEDI, where you can kind 01:09:29.176 --> 01:09:33.476 of decentralize the... So FEDI is like, like Cashu. 01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:40.399 But you have like, let's say, three out of five multisig. 01:09:40.579 --> 01:09:44.399 So there is no single entity that can rug pull. 01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:44.699 Oh, okay. 01:09:44.759 --> 01:09:49.079 They need to cooperate. So that's also neat. 01:09:49.239 --> 01:09:53.459 So there are kind of shades to this. 01:09:53.699 --> 01:10:01.039 I think we will have also like a large group that wants to remain custodial. 01:10:01.039 --> 01:10:06.999 There are like hardcore crypto anarchists that want to run their own node. 01:10:07.339 --> 01:10:13.759 And there's a lot of space in between, I believe, that we should support. 01:10:15.079 --> 01:10:20.859 For the Uncle Jim model, you have Cashu, you have Feddy, and you also have 01:10:20.859 --> 01:10:24.419 AllenBits that also supports multiple users. 01:10:24.759 --> 01:10:27.859 So all of these are kind of nice. 01:10:27.859 --> 01:10:31.039 Uh so that's that's 01:10:31.039 --> 01:10:35.079 kind of in between i think uh like you 01:10:35.079 --> 01:10:41.039 know we are talking about small payments here yeah hopefully they will become 01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:48.439 uh we will all become very rich very soon when uh bitcoin does uh one million 01:10:48.439 --> 01:10:54.839 x right right um but uh so so that can happen you know, 01:10:55.819 --> 01:10:59.019 So Uncle Jim holding, you know, 01:10:59.839 --> 01:11:07.659 a hundred bucks for streaming sets and then it's suddenly a lot more. So we can all dream. 01:11:09.019 --> 01:11:11.459 Yeah, all the channels go down, Jim's house. 01:11:11.559 --> 01:11:17.579 But yeah, yeah. So I think we should support all of these models. 01:11:17.579 --> 01:11:24.019 So, okay, so one thing that, 01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:35.959 okay, so let's look at it from also from the side of the payer or the podcasting app in this case, 01:11:36.079 --> 01:11:43.499 or Nostra app and the receiver side, because that is also something that we 01:11:43.499 --> 01:11:44.699 have not done systematically. 01:11:44.699 --> 01:11:50.139 So a payer size site, I think more than anything, 01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:55.899 podcasts, players or people who are making these players, they want just some 01:11:55.899 --> 01:12:00.199 easy way, some library they would call and they would say, you know, 01:12:00.859 --> 01:12:03.999 pay this podcast for a minute or for boost. 01:12:03.999 --> 01:12:12.039 Um one important requirement i think is that it needs to work over web it needs 01:12:12.039 --> 01:12:16.639 to work from javascript because many of these apps are either like react native 01:12:16.639 --> 01:12:19.039 or just pure web apps that, 01:12:19.799 --> 01:12:29.379 don't have like a they can't run a local lnd on on the machine because they run in the browser so uh. 01:12:30.320 --> 01:12:35.480 I think this was the primary reason why they were using albi in the first place 01:12:35.480 --> 01:12:42.520 because it was it was easy uh so that's one thing to consider and i think uh 01:12:42.520 --> 01:12:47.680 like the the okay so so the question is. 01:12:49.460 --> 01:12:56.560 For albicalyps uh why won't just everyone switch to fountain you know it's also 01:12:56.560 --> 01:13:00.440 a custodial service Albi was a custodial service, 01:13:01.380 --> 01:13:06.160 and we say okay so your 01:13:06.160 --> 01:13:09.420 software podcast guru sorry it 01:13:09.420 --> 01:13:15.000 doesn't work anymore and we are switching to something that works that's also 01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:22.400 an option so my question is I don't know if you have any idea how many users 01:13:22.400 --> 01:13:28.160 do these apps actually have is it 80% fountain, 20%. 01:13:28.160 --> 01:13:38.240 I mean from the value for value because most people 99% don't use any value for value at all. 01:13:38.440 --> 01:13:43.680 Yeah, I'm just thinking through some of the shows where they call out because 01:13:43.680 --> 01:13:48.500 with this Helipad app, they are seeing the Keysend payments come in and it says 01:13:48.500 --> 01:13:51.200 where the app is coming from. Really? 01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:51.980 Okay. 01:13:52.600 --> 01:13:57.720 So they look at when they read it they'll be like, you know, 01:13:58.040 --> 01:14:00.640 BitPunk FM boosted 3333 from Fountain. 01:14:01.120 --> 01:14:06.440 So they, yeah, so they're, when they, when they read this, when they read them, 01:14:06.620 --> 01:14:08.880 they are able to tell. And I would say, 01:14:09.572 --> 01:14:14.492 It's a pretty, well, I don't know. I feel like Fountain is probably 20% maybe 01:14:14.492 --> 01:14:18.512 and the rest of the 80% are other, either Podverse. 01:14:18.852 --> 01:14:22.592 I see a lot of Boost CLI, which I don't know if you know, I haven't looked at 01:14:22.592 --> 01:14:23.632 that tool, but I see that a lot. 01:14:23.752 --> 01:14:26.512 It's a command line tool to send a payment. So it's probably, 01:14:26.612 --> 01:14:31.012 it sounds similar to this pay to thing you have for L&D. 01:14:31.752 --> 01:14:35.092 I'm sure it's L&D because I think that they're all running. So Boost CLI, 01:14:35.312 --> 01:14:37.872 there's a lot of payments that come in through Boost CLI. 01:14:37.872 --> 01:14:41.452 Um i think these are mainly not and 01:14:41.452 --> 01:14:44.932 this kind of well yeah so boost cli uh podverse 01:14:44.932 --> 01:14:48.592 i think comes in quite a bit podcast there's another thing called curio caster 01:14:48.592 --> 01:14:53.952 which i feel like they say is like the og this was like i've heard this is the 01:14:53.952 --> 01:15:03.332 og um actual like zap or boost here i think it's all web-based actually curio caster um so. 01:15:03.332 --> 01:15:05.072 How does it work yeah. 01:15:05.072 --> 01:15:06.912 This is when for a place. 01:15:07.292 --> 01:15:08.392 Also Albi probably. 01:15:08.752 --> 01:15:18.332 Yeah, I think everything was probably Albi. But there was also an issue which I think is less... 01:15:18.332 --> 01:15:22.692 Okay, so there's another thing there we can talk about too is the idea of Nostra 01:15:22.692 --> 01:15:27.232 Wallet Connect, which I'm also uninformed about, but there is... 01:15:27.232 --> 01:15:30.652 I will talk about it. Yes. 01:15:30.892 --> 01:15:35.392 Okay, there is an app name in the description of the KeySend. 01:15:36.192 --> 01:15:43.332 Okay so yeah so that's how let me see yeah let me see so grab app name i will 01:15:43.332 --> 01:15:54.112 do uh oh you're looking for boring yeah yes and i'm not gonna parse the json i'm gonna say throw. 01:15:54.112 --> 01:15:55.152 It through jq just. 01:15:55.152 --> 01:16:04.492 Cat it JQ okay I wouldn't know yeah yes Harry want me to chat or. 01:16:04.492 --> 01:16:07.372 AI how to do JQ JQ will parse JSON nicely. 01:16:08.426 --> 01:16:11.606 I'm just gonna do grab it's gonna be faster so, 01:16:13.806 --> 01:16:32.246 so app name okay uh and i have 3600 key cents and uh fountain is uh 3400, 01:16:33.446 --> 01:16:42.486 okay i was also testing breeze myself so that's 100 so anything else than fountain 01:16:42.486 --> 01:16:48.846 and breeze in my note yeah rounding error like no one okay like it's a fountain yeah. 01:16:48.846 --> 01:16:55.126 So fountain's really pushing so i guess yeah so found so on the podcast listener 01:16:55.126 --> 01:17:00.486 i i would have to say i don't think i really started boosting people until fountain so. 01:17:00.486 --> 01:17:01.446 Yes fountain. 01:17:01.446 --> 01:17:03.806 I think really um. 01:17:03.806 --> 01:17:07.726 There are 30 there are 01:17:07.726 --> 01:17:16.646 30 key scents that are different than fountain and breeze and let me just see 01:17:16.646 --> 01:17:21.946 what they are uh i know you asked someone to boost my podcast because it was 01:17:21.946 --> 01:17:25.066 not working so one of them is, 01:17:25.926 --> 01:17:28.186 shootout to who was it? 01:17:28.906 --> 01:17:29.326 Chad F. 01:17:30.826 --> 01:17:35.826 Yeah, shoutout to Chad F. And let's see. 01:17:36.843 --> 01:17:40.823 Name podverse okay so 01:17:40.823 --> 01:17:44.203 which is so so 01:17:44.203 --> 01:17:47.423 so that's uh wait okay i'll do i'll do 01:17:47.423 --> 01:17:50.763 grab minus v chat f because 01:17:50.763 --> 01:17:54.363 yeah right okay so 01:17:54.363 --> 01:18:03.023 i have 17 more and there is one other user of chatverse cipher citizen okay 01:18:03.023 --> 01:18:10.763 and then then there's someone actually boosting bitpunk fm where i got the splits, 01:18:11.763 --> 01:18:18.543 okay so seems that if we convince cypher citizen and chedef to switch to something 01:18:18.543 --> 01:18:26.643 else than pod verse there's no Albycalypse there we solved it one hour 21 minutes 01:18:26.643 --> 01:18:31.543 yeah we've well well i think I think to be fair. 01:18:32.203 --> 01:18:34.343 The, the, the, the. 01:18:34.343 --> 01:18:35.863 The, the, I'm not a representative. 01:18:36.363 --> 01:18:42.003 No, no, no, no. But I think, I think the issue is the, the, the clips is happening 01:18:42.003 --> 01:18:47.883 on the podcaster side because all there's a lot of podcasters who are onboarded, 01:18:48.123 --> 01:18:50.823 whose key send is going to an Albie. 01:18:51.223 --> 01:18:55.683 I mean, so for users, I don't think it ever, yeah, I don't think it ever mattered really. 01:18:55.683 --> 01:18:58.643 Um like they the the 01:18:58.643 --> 01:19:01.463 hardcore the the ogs were yeah are using 01:19:01.463 --> 01:19:04.703 podiverse and some of these other ones yes um but like 01:19:04.703 --> 01:19:09.283 the the latest wave is coming yeah for sure i think fountain picked up a bunch 01:19:09.283 --> 01:19:13.663 yes and it doesn't really affect them it affects i think a lot of musicians 01:19:13.663 --> 01:19:22.403 and podcasters who have keysend addresses that are going to an albie um an albie and I'll be run node. 01:19:23.083 --> 01:19:23.403 Yes. 01:19:23.663 --> 01:19:25.803 They're the ones that have to migrate. And then they're like, 01:19:25.903 --> 01:19:28.403 Oh, well, what do I do? What do I do now? Yeah. 01:19:29.057 --> 01:19:35.517 All right so yeah so so that's true okay let's finish the the payer side but 01:19:35.517 --> 01:19:42.677 uh yeah this is a good point yes so basically what would be cool uh is a way 01:19:42.677 --> 01:19:48.317 to migrate from albi in such a way that there's an API that is easy to use. 01:19:49.597 --> 01:19:55.957 And there are three, I think, usable APIs. 01:19:58.457 --> 01:20:02.157 And these are Breeze SDK. 01:20:02.517 --> 01:20:05.677 So that's something else than Breeze entirely. 01:20:05.937 --> 01:20:11.417 It has nothing to do with the Breeze wallet. It uses Blockstream Greenlight. 01:20:11.417 --> 01:20:23.537 So what they do is that Blockstream basically spawns a very minimal Core Lightning node in their cloud, 01:20:23.537 --> 01:20:26.917 but they don't have the private keys. 01:20:26.917 --> 01:20:33.677 So everything that needs to sign the commitment transaction or anything like 01:20:33.677 --> 01:20:43.117 that goes through the API to your phone and it signs whatever needs to be signed. 01:20:43.917 --> 01:20:47.817 So they don't hold any funds. So it's non-custodial, 01:20:47.977 --> 01:20:56.617 but they do all the gossip chatting on the network and whatever channel graphs 01:20:56.617 --> 01:21:00.177 and all these things that you don't want to do on your phone. 01:21:00.557 --> 01:21:06.477 One of the reasons that Breeze, the original Breeze is so slow and often doesn't 01:21:06.477 --> 01:21:10.837 find a route to pay is that it needs to sync the channel graph. 01:21:10.977 --> 01:21:16.037 So if you turn it on, like if you start the app after a month of not using it, 01:21:16.721 --> 01:21:20.721 It is really not usable for the first few minutes because it doesn't have the 01:21:20.721 --> 01:21:25.741 current channel graph, because it does routing and everything on the phone. 01:21:26.001 --> 01:21:34.421 With this Breeze SDK, what they do is you run a node, you do everything on the 01:21:34.421 --> 01:21:40.961 block stream site, but you still sign the transaction, so you don't give anyone custom of your funds. 01:21:41.301 --> 01:21:47.761 So it is quite similar to what Phoenix does. also. 01:21:50.201 --> 01:21:58.001 The Phoenix wallet basically the same idea custody keys are in a very small 01:21:58.001 --> 01:22:04.001 app I've actually read the source code of the Phoenix wallet the whole lightning 01:22:04.001 --> 01:22:05.601 part and it's pretty simple, 01:22:06.561 --> 01:22:19.261 and so Breeze SDK they have SDKs for app developers for native Android and iOS apps. Very usable. 01:22:19.781 --> 01:22:24.241 For the listener side, it's quite okay because if you're listening to a podcast, 01:22:24.461 --> 01:22:26.021 the app is running anyway. 01:22:26.321 --> 01:22:32.101 So no need to stress about battery use or anything. 01:22:32.361 --> 01:22:37.921 It's the app that is running. And if you send one payment every 10 minutes with 01:22:37.921 --> 01:22:45.281 batching and it signs a few messages, it's not a problem. and I've checked the API. 01:22:45.601 --> 01:22:53.101 It is very, very easy to use. So I suggest actually, like I would be very thrilled 01:22:53.101 --> 01:22:56.081 if, for example, Fountain had this as an option. 01:22:56.381 --> 01:22:57.861 That would be pretty cool because 01:22:57.861 --> 01:23:01.861 they would not have custody of your keys and it's a core Lightning. 01:23:02.121 --> 01:23:08.601 So it can do Bolt 12, it can pay Allen address, Allen URL, anything. 01:23:09.421 --> 01:23:11.641 So that's one option on the pairs. 01:23:11.941 --> 01:23:12.821 Yeah. Mm-hmm. 01:23:13.483 --> 01:23:19.523 I highly recommend and it's like open source of course greenlight api is not 01:23:19.523 --> 01:23:24.103 open source it's it's running in the cloud i don't actually know if you can 01:23:24.103 --> 01:23:26.303 run there not maybe not but, 01:23:26.983 --> 01:23:30.363 for app developers it is quite okay and they're 01:23:30.363 --> 01:23:33.983 like pretty nice limits 01:23:33.983 --> 01:23:36.783 even for free use okay so 01:23:36.783 --> 01:23:43.023 that's one thing uh then i think uh the the problem with this is of course uh 01:23:43.023 --> 01:23:49.723 web apps cannot use this uh as far as i know it is sdk for for mobile native 01:23:49.723 --> 01:23:54.743 apps not for for just web but maybe maybe that's yeah. 01:23:54.743 --> 01:23:56.883 But ai can make the javascript api. 01:23:56.883 --> 01:24:03.843 Yes yes i think they have a javascript api actually but i'm not sure how um 01:24:03.843 --> 01:24:11.443 how well it works like for receiving it would not work probably but for sending 01:24:11.443 --> 01:24:16.403 you're still online so you're because the problem with the web web app is, 01:24:17.183 --> 01:24:20.943 we can talk about it later people try 01:24:20.943 --> 01:24:24.243 to use mutiny as a destination which 01:24:24.243 --> 01:24:28.623 which is a web wallet currently deprecated 01:24:28.623 --> 01:24:31.703 and they're shutting it down unfortunately it was 01:24:31.703 --> 01:24:35.303 pretty nice project but that's running a whole 01:24:35.303 --> 01:24:41.663 lightning node in JavaScript in a web page but that doesn't really work because 01:24:41.663 --> 01:24:47.083 if your computer goes to sleep or the browser decides that this tab has been 01:24:47.083 --> 01:24:52.063 using too much energy it gets shut down but for sending I don't think it's a 01:24:52.063 --> 01:24:54.723 problem so maybe it could work also for, 01:24:55.823 --> 01:24:59.363 for the client side, for the payer side. Yeah. 01:25:00.123 --> 01:25:05.883 Then we have Cashu Means. They have a REST API, so that's quite nice. 01:25:07.403 --> 01:25:14.303 Cashu Means, you can have basically a very simple Cashew wallet. 01:25:16.203 --> 01:25:24.163 Cashu wallet is like all the SATs are basically a bunch of strings. 01:25:24.723 --> 01:25:28.563 And you can even use recovery seats and so on. 01:25:29.703 --> 01:25:37.343 So payments are very simple. And what you can do is you can call a mint and 01:25:37.343 --> 01:25:44.123 tell it to, I think the call is melt, which means here is a bunch of tokens. 01:25:44.403 --> 01:25:47.023 Please pay this Bolt 11 invoice. 01:25:48.403 --> 01:25:56.103 So basically the one API call and you pay. you can also also receive. 01:25:56.343 --> 01:26:04.723 So that's a mint call, which gives you an invoice. And if it's paid, you get a cash token. 01:26:06.400 --> 01:26:15.820 This is pretty nice. You also outsource all the routing, all the links to some 01:26:15.820 --> 01:26:20.620 software that has a node and everything. So you don't have to run anything. 01:26:21.520 --> 01:26:27.940 So this is, I think, the most equivalent to, or one of the most equivalent to Albi Hub. 01:26:28.180 --> 01:26:33.860 No, Albi, actually, the original one. But you can choose your own custodian. 01:26:33.960 --> 01:26:35.900 This can be the Uncle Jim model. 01:26:36.920 --> 01:26:48.820 The problem is it can't do kisent, but other than that, I think this would be the best option maybe, 01:26:49.240 --> 01:26:54.080 or I don't know, but it seems like a very good option for this, 01:26:54.220 --> 01:26:59.700 for Podverse and for all these web apps, because you can call it from JavaScript. 01:27:00.820 --> 01:27:10.560 The client side is pretty simple and the additionally users can choose their 01:27:10.560 --> 01:27:20.240 own custodian I wonder how difficult it would be to actually implement key sent in the mint probably. 01:27:20.520 --> 01:27:23.400 Yeah, so this is what I have 01:27:23.400 --> 01:27:28.720 like two questions here that I'm now mulling over one is what is it what is 01:27:28.720 --> 01:27:34.260 it about the lightning network that requires this constant connection right 01:27:34.260 --> 01:27:39.720 so what like it's running over TCP right like what like why is there a keep 01:27:39.720 --> 01:27:42.020 a lot like what's you know if I make, 01:27:42.671 --> 01:27:45.591 you know the it's it's a it's a layer above a tcp 01:27:45.591 --> 01:27:49.791 ip connection and these tcp ip connections are not constantly open yeah they're 01:27:49.791 --> 01:27:55.491 like they can come so what what is it why does the you know what's the deal 01:27:55.491 --> 01:27:59.551 like why can't it be isn't there some time where it has to just check like once 01:27:59.551 --> 01:28:05.391 a day a channel if it can reach the server once a day it's fine like what's the the the no yeah. 01:28:05.391 --> 01:28:07.271 The mobile wallets are not. 01:28:07.271 --> 01:28:08.971 Online all the time like like breeze. 01:28:08.971 --> 01:28:13.871 Wallet is like if you want to send if you want to receive you have to become 01:28:13.871 --> 01:28:18.831 online and when you're sending you exchange the messages pay the invoice and 01:28:18.831 --> 01:28:19.971 you can come offline again. 01:28:19.971 --> 01:28:26.811 So because receive okay so in order to you can be offline but then no one can 01:28:26.811 --> 01:28:29.591 send you anything this is the yes yeah okay yes. 01:28:29.591 --> 01:28:35.011 Yes but for for for the podcast player this is not a problem so because. 01:28:35.011 --> 01:28:36.051 Yeah right playing. 01:28:36.051 --> 01:28:37.851 Podcast and sending or or not. 01:28:37.851 --> 01:28:38.291 Yeah for. 01:28:38.291 --> 01:28:43.391 The payer side i think this can be a really good solution and you know choose 01:28:43.391 --> 01:28:49.491 your own custodian and it has pretty good privacy like uh like the mint doesn't 01:28:49.491 --> 01:28:51.391 know your balances for example. 01:28:51.391 --> 01:29:00.831 Right so let's you know let's because is there not a model where um again kind 01:29:00.831 --> 01:29:03.811 of like a, I mean, maybe this is the cashing model. 01:29:04.011 --> 01:29:11.271 Like if you, if you, if there is just a intermediary node on the lightning network 01:29:11.271 --> 01:29:16.811 that can just, it like, I want to say, I want to send you, you have a podcast. 01:29:17.071 --> 01:29:19.831 I want to send it to you, but your podcast, your node is offline. 01:29:20.291 --> 01:29:24.371 There's, but there's no concept of store and forward messages where some intermediary 01:29:24.371 --> 01:29:28.871 node is going to be like, Oh, I can't reach your eye. So I'm going to hold this message until his node. 01:29:28.871 --> 01:29:29.251 Comes up. 01:29:29.251 --> 01:29:32.571 And then forward it this this concept doesn't exist right because that. 01:29:32.571 --> 01:29:44.271 It it does uh uh to an extent but um uh like that there were invoices that would 01:29:44.271 --> 01:29:47.831 do this holding the problem is uh that, 01:29:49.751 --> 01:29:56.751 um so so basically you can have a very long htlc htlc is the lock of the path 01:29:56.751 --> 01:30:01.251 so basically what What you do is you create a path to the end node, 01:30:01.491 --> 01:30:07.291 the funds are locked, and then when the receiver claims it, 01:30:07.531 --> 01:30:09.931 it's claimed all the way back. 01:30:10.951 --> 01:30:20.971 And the problem here is that unless the node claims the money. 01:30:21.833 --> 01:30:26.173 There is no way to atomically get fees. 01:30:26.393 --> 01:30:30.553 And the problem is that the funds are locked in all the channels. 01:30:30.833 --> 01:30:37.673 So that's why no one wants to hold the invoice for you for 24 hours because 01:30:37.673 --> 01:30:40.133 it might not get settled ever. 01:30:40.453 --> 01:30:46.293 And then however many Bitcoins are locked. So it's a spam fighting problem. 01:30:46.493 --> 01:30:49.733 That's one issue. um okay so 01:30:49.733 --> 01:30:52.513 so people yeah we're kind of 01:30:52.513 --> 01:30:55.313 playing with this yeah but but this is the problem but 01:30:55.313 --> 01:30:58.353 but Cashu uh cashew would 01:30:58.353 --> 01:31:02.213 be a little bit kind of trusted intermediary 01:31:02.213 --> 01:31:05.733 uh that that can do this so so 01:31:05.733 --> 01:31:08.593 yeah so basically it would be 01:31:08.593 --> 01:31:11.713 like a like a like an email server you know yeah 01:31:11.713 --> 01:31:14.713 it would receive the email for you okay it 01:31:14.713 --> 01:31:18.173 can go down and rack pull you and 01:31:18.173 --> 01:31:21.593 steal your email but when 01:31:21.593 --> 01:31:26.333 you come online you you just download it and then it's yours so yeah i think 01:31:26.333 --> 01:31:32.113 this is kind of a good middle ground so especially for the cases when you are 01:31:32.113 --> 01:31:39.793 like um online very often but not like right right right super all the time so which. 01:31:39.793 --> 01:31:42.553 You know i don't know like the um what has kind 01:31:42.553 --> 01:31:45.993 of impressed me about you know lightning is like 01:31:45.993 --> 01:31:51.873 how little i haven't heard of too many like major lightning hacks or lightning 01:31:51.873 --> 01:31:56.773 you know based like you know is it this is uh i think there was more in the 01:31:56.773 --> 01:32:01.213 og bitcoin wallet days of like things all this happening but lightning is all 01:32:01.213 --> 01:32:04.133 everyone's hot walleting or the whole whole thing's. 01:32:04.133 --> 01:32:04.633 Hot wallet. 01:32:04.633 --> 01:32:11.373 And like you know i don't know if there's been a major ode in one of these nodes 01:32:11.373 --> 01:32:13.593 that has just wiped out uh. 01:32:13.593 --> 01:32:15.353 I mean i i don't know i. 01:32:15.353 --> 01:32:17.613 I mean we don't know of one but. 01:32:17.613 --> 01:32:25.713 Like there were some there were some bugs there were i don't know of any like super yes uh, 01:32:26.997 --> 01:32:32.057 Yes, I've heard about one hack, actually. 01:32:33.057 --> 01:32:37.117 It was with the... 01:32:37.117 --> 01:32:47.577 Yes, there was a well-publicized hack that actually ended up in the Bitliffy 01:32:47.577 --> 01:32:49.837 wallet that I mentioned, the Czech one. 01:32:50.037 --> 01:32:50.397 Okay. 01:32:51.277 --> 01:33:05.017 That's why I remember it. I was actually replying to the victim of this hack because they said, 01:33:05.137 --> 01:33:07.457 oh, I know where my money ended. 01:33:07.457 --> 01:33:11.437 It was on this node and it's Bitlify, so just give it back to me. 01:33:13.037 --> 01:33:20.137 But it's a custodial node for many, many users, doesn't do KYC. 01:33:20.137 --> 01:33:21.177 And. 01:33:21.177 --> 01:33:23.077 The funds were. 01:33:23.077 --> 01:33:23.937 Sent immediately. 01:33:23.937 --> 01:33:25.637 Somewhere else so they don't. 01:33:25.637 --> 01:33:26.237 Have the funds. 01:33:26.237 --> 01:33:31.037 Anymore so they couldn't really help him. 01:33:31.037 --> 01:33:34.297 I think there are hacks but. 01:33:34.297 --> 01:33:35.377 You like how the wallet snow. 01:33:35.377 --> 01:33:37.437 Well this is my, 01:33:39.917 --> 01:33:45.497 everyone wants to say this is just everybody for example the hardware wallet 01:33:45.497 --> 01:33:49.177 stuff everyone goes oh you can have a mobile wallet whatever, 01:33:49.317 --> 01:33:50.997 but we're all doing this with Lightning. 01:33:53.597 --> 01:33:59.397 Yeah, maybe the amounts are smaller, but the opportunity's there, 01:33:59.517 --> 01:34:04.777 and everyone seems to be okay. Yes. 01:34:06.603 --> 01:34:12.963 Well, watch until the first hardware wallet does a Lightning wallet, 01:34:13.083 --> 01:34:15.923 which is possible. It's not actually... 01:34:15.923 --> 01:34:20.523 But yeah, I mean, okay, you say that perhaps trollingly, but this is my point. 01:34:20.703 --> 01:34:24.683 You know, it's like, what's a hardware wallet that does Lightning? It's a mobile phone. 01:34:25.163 --> 01:34:29.263 I mean, it's going to be like, what do you, I mean, do you want it to be connected? 01:34:29.463 --> 01:34:32.263 Do you want it to be the node? Because you could put, you could also probably 01:34:32.263 --> 01:34:37.923 take a Lightning node, which is like some PC, plug it into a Trezor and have 01:34:37.923 --> 01:34:38.943 the Trezor do the signing. 01:34:39.143 --> 01:34:42.803 I mean, if you want to do that, I mean, like, but then, you know, 01:34:42.943 --> 01:34:47.063 what's the, but then the issue is then we're back to, this is my issue with 01:34:47.063 --> 01:34:49.203 these hardware walls, you're back to like some automated, 01:34:49.423 --> 01:34:53.643 so yes, the key could stay in the Trezor, but you're not going to go run to 01:34:53.643 --> 01:34:56.043 the basement every time to press a button, 01:34:56.863 --> 01:35:01.843 to like stream sats, you know, like now it's an automated For the node. 01:35:02.063 --> 01:35:02.303 Yes. 01:35:02.503 --> 01:35:06.243 Yeah, it's for the node, so it's protected because it's It's protected from 01:35:06.243 --> 01:35:09.843 the node having a software vulnerability of exposing the key. 01:35:10.043 --> 01:35:12.823 But now we're back to like, well, if the node is compromised, 01:35:12.983 --> 01:35:16.163 it could potentially send it because it's going to be automated. So like, you know. 01:35:16.243 --> 01:35:21.903 What do we... Well, it wouldn't make sense if the sending was automated, 01:35:21.923 --> 01:35:26.003 if you couldn't confirm it or if it doesn't need to confirm it. 01:35:27.003 --> 01:35:34.283 But you can definitely set up some rules. You can say, you know, only send this amount. 01:35:35.323 --> 01:35:42.023 And you can actually do it like this amount per day and you get the current 01:35:42.023 --> 01:35:45.103 day by block headers. So that's possible. 01:35:45.703 --> 01:35:49.743 But the main problem with hardware 01:35:49.743 --> 01:35:55.903 wallets, with Lightning was that you need to sign much more often. 01:35:55.903 --> 01:36:01.623 Because if you have, for example, a routing node, you are changing channel states 01:36:01.623 --> 01:36:05.443 all the time. but you actually are, 01:36:07.748 --> 01:36:15.128 All the time, you can sign the message or sign the channel state that gives 01:36:15.128 --> 01:36:16.488 you more sets than you had. 01:36:17.228 --> 01:36:24.788 So if you are receiving, then yeah, I'm glad to sign anything that gives me more money than I had. 01:36:24.968 --> 01:36:25.568 Why not? 01:36:26.028 --> 01:36:30.308 You can do that in a hardware wallet. For routing, that's the same case. 01:36:30.308 --> 01:36:34.788 You have two channels and you end up with more sets because you collect the fee. 01:36:35.628 --> 01:36:41.488 But you need to sign two channels at the same time but you can also do that 01:36:41.488 --> 01:36:47.188 so in principle there is like even a routing node kind of hardware wallet and 01:36:47.188 --> 01:36:49.028 you don't need to click anything, 01:36:49.968 --> 01:36:53.288 but yeah for listening to podcasts that 01:36:53.288 --> 01:36:56.628 wouldn't work right alright so Cashu 01:36:56.628 --> 01:37:04.288 should be explored maybe we can look into integrating Keysend into Cashu and 01:37:04.288 --> 01:37:13.488 if we do that then all the web apps can just switch to Cashu from AlbiHub and so in this case you would. 01:37:13.488 --> 01:37:18.008 Have a Cashu so it would kind of be like the podcast clients would have Cashew 01:37:18.008 --> 01:37:20.768 tokens and then when they want to send. 01:37:20.768 --> 01:37:26.108 Well podcast clients what do you mean by podcast clients your browser it could 01:37:26.108 --> 01:37:32.148 be a browser yeah exactly it's client software it has. 01:37:32.148 --> 01:37:37.928 A Cashu token and when it wants to send it will send the token to. 01:37:37.928 --> 01:37:39.288 The mint. 01:37:40.348 --> 01:37:45.988 Which is then also a lightning node and then yeah so this mint could. 01:37:45.988 --> 01:37:52.588 Also there is literally API call saying you know pay this invoice here is the token yeah. 01:37:53.409 --> 01:37:59.369 So, and then the podcaster could then get key sent because there's, 01:37:59.369 --> 01:38:00.229 again, this translation. 01:38:00.689 --> 01:38:06.609 Yes, but the key sent is not there. But maybe even like having an... 01:38:06.609 --> 01:38:09.109 So there's this Melt API call? 01:38:09.689 --> 01:38:10.109 Yeah. 01:38:10.149 --> 01:38:13.089 Wait, let's see if it actually can be key sent. 01:38:13.089 --> 01:38:15.089 You're saying right now. Oh, okay. Yeah, so. 01:38:16.529 --> 01:38:24.029 Cashu Melt. Okay, Cashew Melt is not something to search for. I got organic cashew. 01:38:24.869 --> 01:38:25.169 Yeah. 01:38:25.849 --> 01:38:27.109 Wow. I should buy this. 01:38:27.289 --> 01:38:27.669 Cashu butter. 01:38:28.849 --> 01:38:36.169 Okay. Okay. Cashu API melt Bitcoin protocol specification. 01:38:37.669 --> 01:38:42.269 All right. Should I contact my friendly? 01:38:43.429 --> 01:38:47.509 Okay. My friendly AI Googling. 01:38:48.049 --> 01:38:56.149 Yeah. Yeah. It's like the protocols are in the files numbered 12345. 01:38:56.149 --> 01:38:57.369 There's the documentation. 01:38:58.349 --> 01:39:07.449 So Cashu Mint API Melt Syntax. Okay. 01:39:08.849 --> 01:39:15.389 Search online. Anyway. Okay. So search for this. Yeah. 01:39:15.389 --> 01:39:19.829 Okay so this is but the problem is um the 01:39:19.829 --> 01:39:22.769 issue is so this would let's just assume let's 01:39:22.769 --> 01:39:25.549 say they did it so i guess there's a few i guess there's a few problems 01:39:25.549 --> 01:39:28.429 one Cashu on the pod really we're 01:39:28.429 --> 01:39:32.849 talking about like five major podcasts anyway so like they they'd have to like 01:39:32.849 --> 01:39:37.229 learn about Cashu and integrate things that and cashew is kind of i think changing 01:39:37.229 --> 01:39:42.069 rapidly so i can see i can see the hesitation from a podcast client to like 01:39:42.069 --> 01:39:46.669 integrate Cashu perhaps um the second issue is um, 01:39:47.473 --> 01:39:51.233 Well, the benefit would be then the podcasters could keep their lightning notes 01:39:51.233 --> 01:39:53.593 with key send and they would just do the translation. 01:39:53.813 --> 01:39:55.933 So it's just, but that's the. 01:39:55.993 --> 01:39:56.213 Yes. 01:39:56.493 --> 01:39:59.893 And then the other thing. All right. So that's Cashu. But then how does, 01:40:00.073 --> 01:40:02.693 because I think in that same section you have, I'm looking at your. 01:40:03.313 --> 01:40:03.733 Yes. 01:40:04.193 --> 01:40:06.853 You have Nostra Wallet Connect, which often comes up. 01:40:07.113 --> 01:40:07.373 Okay. 01:40:07.813 --> 01:40:07.973 Yeah. 01:40:07.973 --> 01:40:17.833 So people don't so it's probably the most stupid name ever invented for a technology. 01:40:19.373 --> 01:40:26.673 Nostra Wallet Connect doesn't have much to do with Nostra so it is using Nostra 01:40:26.673 --> 01:40:31.833 relays but it's totally unrelated to Nostra so okay so. 01:40:32.893 --> 01:40:38.393 What is it what it is it is a protocol standardized protocol, 01:40:39.353 --> 01:40:42.133 with which an application such as 01:40:42.133 --> 01:40:45.873 Podwares can talk to a wallet that's 01:40:45.873 --> 01:40:48.853 it the Nostra thing there is 01:40:48.853 --> 01:40:52.693 that it doesn't call the API of the 01:40:52.693 --> 01:40:59.993 like the endpoint like Cashu Mint or Albi or something like that but it sends 01:40:59.993 --> 01:41:05.233 a message through a Nostra relay and that's for solving this exact problem that 01:41:05.233 --> 01:41:10.113 you don't have a domain or web server or open port or anything like that. 01:41:10.293 --> 01:41:18.633 So it can actually run on your phone and you would agree on one or a set of 01:41:18.633 --> 01:41:22.133 Nostra relays that are used just for encrypted communication. 01:41:22.513 --> 01:41:25.193 So you could have your wallet on your phone, 01:41:26.064 --> 01:41:30.424 which supports Nostra Wallet Connect. And then you just exchange these connect 01:41:30.424 --> 01:41:36.204 strings, which have some key material that authorize this app. 01:41:36.364 --> 01:41:42.144 For example, a podcast player to control your wallet and pay invoices on your 01:41:42.144 --> 01:41:48.124 behalf. You can have rules there, like maximum amounts that can be paid or something like that. 01:41:49.464 --> 01:41:57.444 So this is ideal because it doesn't... Like, first of all, it is usable from 01:41:57.444 --> 01:42:02.064 web apps because Nostra is just a REST API, Nostra Relays. 01:42:02.144 --> 01:42:09.684 So you don't need to connect to funny TCP ports or whatever. 01:42:10.704 --> 01:42:14.304 You don't need port forwarding. It is encrypted. 01:42:14.624 --> 01:42:20.924 The privacy is not very good of this, but okay, it's two random keys talking 01:42:20.924 --> 01:42:25.464 to each other And you don't see in the messages, but you see all the metadata. 01:42:25.764 --> 01:42:28.124 So that's the thing. 01:42:28.344 --> 01:42:31.864 The people see the metadata between the client and the relay. 01:42:32.384 --> 01:42:32.824 Yes. 01:42:33.164 --> 01:42:37.404 Okay. All right. So the over normal TCP connection or HTP in this case. 01:42:38.464 --> 01:42:39.264 HTTPS. Yes. 01:42:39.384 --> 01:42:42.644 HTTPS. Okay. Okay. So, okay. So it's no different than the internet. 01:42:43.804 --> 01:42:48.724 No, but the relay sees which pub key writes to which pub key, I think. So that's. 01:42:49.344 --> 01:42:50.964 Oh, okay. But. 01:42:51.044 --> 01:42:51.124 Yeah. 01:42:51.504 --> 01:42:54.744 But why would you not run your own Relay in this case? 01:42:55.584 --> 01:43:04.204 Well, if you're running a web-based app and phone wallet, then you're probably not running a Relay. 01:43:05.256 --> 01:43:10.796 But yeah, Podverse can run their own relay, of course. 01:43:11.316 --> 01:43:12.096 Okay, okay, okay. 01:43:12.356 --> 01:43:12.496 Yeah. 01:43:12.976 --> 01:43:13.776 Okay, okay. 01:43:13.916 --> 01:43:15.976 I think this is not such a big problem. 01:43:18.416 --> 01:43:30.516 So basically, this is one of the ways how you can replace the Albi API in a standardized way. 01:43:32.796 --> 01:43:35.836 Uh the problem is the support 01:43:35.836 --> 01:43:39.276 of wallets so yeah not not many 01:43:39.276 --> 01:43:42.496 wallets actually allow incoming nostril 01:43:42.496 --> 01:43:45.496 wallets connect connections or 01:43:45.496 --> 01:43:49.776 support the protocol um the the 01:43:49.776 --> 01:43:56.896 weird thing is that like when you see the page with support yeah you don't know 01:43:56.896 --> 01:44:03.156 which side so for example btc pay server which is awesome i use it it says that 01:44:03.156 --> 01:44:05.996 it supports uh nostril wallet connect, 01:44:06.676 --> 01:44:13.676 but from the other side so if you create a store it can use a third party nostril wallet connect. 01:44:15.976 --> 01:44:21.936 To to generate invoices and receive so this is good if you have an e-shop and 01:44:21.936 --> 01:44:26.856 you want to use BTCPay server, but you don't want to run the node on the server 01:44:26.856 --> 01:44:29.136 or it's like a friend or something, 01:44:30.456 --> 01:44:37.596 it can pay directly to someone's wallet, but that wallet needs to support Wallet Connect. 01:44:38.436 --> 01:44:47.236 And unfortunately, the list of actual wallets that can be used for paying, 01:44:47.676 --> 01:44:52.096 we are still on the payer side, is not that good. 01:44:52.096 --> 01:44:54.356 Let's see Nostra Wallet Connect. 01:44:54.836 --> 01:45:02.056 So there's Albi for one more month. 01:45:02.476 --> 01:45:04.936 And let's see Bitcoin Wallet. 01:45:06.196 --> 01:45:14.496 So there's Albi, Mutiny, which is also going to be discontinued. 01:45:16.336 --> 01:45:21.776 KasaOS, Cashu.me. So that's a cash wallet. 01:45:22.096 --> 01:45:25.296 Which is quite nice because you could support cash wallets. 01:45:25.636 --> 01:45:29.816 There's Coinos, which is pretty awesome as well. It's a custodial wallet. 01:45:29.956 --> 01:45:31.376 I think people have been talking about. 01:45:31.556 --> 01:45:32.496 Yeah, I've heard of this. 01:45:32.716 --> 01:45:40.376 Coinos, LivPay, which I don't know, Micronote. I also don't know it. 01:45:40.456 --> 01:45:42.956 Mutiny is going. 01:45:43.336 --> 01:45:45.076 And then Umbrell and Start9. 01:45:45.656 --> 01:45:46.176 Okay. 01:45:46.396 --> 01:45:52.596 But that's it. So no Phoenix, no Breeze, no Zeus. 01:45:57.729 --> 01:46:02.169 But yeah, there are options. Like Cashu.me, I think is a good option. 01:46:02.169 --> 01:46:04.569 And if you have Umbrella or Start9. 01:46:05.229 --> 01:46:11.069 So when you say Cashu.me, I can then have some app. 01:46:11.069 --> 01:46:17.129 And if it supports Nostro Wallet Connect back to Cashu.me, it will send the 01:46:17.129 --> 01:46:20.809 Cashu token or it will do the melt to send the... So basically, 01:46:20.929 --> 01:46:21.709 I'm going to say I want to... 01:46:21.709 --> 01:46:27.409 No, this is a Lightning protocol. So it only deals with Lightning invoices. 01:46:27.729 --> 01:46:31.549 So it will kind of abstract. So you would have like, 01:46:33.829 --> 01:46:36.789 so Cashu.me is a wallet for cashew. 01:46:37.089 --> 01:46:42.369 So it stores the tokens, but the Nostra wallet connecting would be used just 01:46:42.369 --> 01:46:45.609 to pay invoices and receive and convert it to Cashu tokens. 01:46:45.609 --> 01:46:49.969 Okay, perfect. So I could have a podcast player and if I want to send a boost 01:46:49.969 --> 01:46:53.889 and if I'm using Nostra wallet connect to connect to Cashu.me and I have cashew 01:46:53.889 --> 01:46:57.609 tokens in there from the... 01:46:57.609 --> 01:46:59.269 Any mint that you want, yes. 01:46:59.409 --> 01:47:02.949 Any mint I want. It'll basically look like I'm sending a Lightning payment, 01:47:03.609 --> 01:47:09.149 but because it'll just melt whatever Cashu tokens it has to do on the back end to satisfy that. 01:47:09.149 --> 01:47:10.369 I think so. I hope so. 01:47:10.589 --> 01:47:12.229 I have tried. Yeah. 01:47:12.449 --> 01:47:17.669 So two problems that I see. First is still doesn't do key sent. 01:47:18.269 --> 01:47:23.309 Second is Cashu.me is a web wallet. 01:47:23.949 --> 01:47:29.769 So the same thing. Oh, yeah. run always but on the client side but you would 01:47:29.769 --> 01:47:37.989 need to have it open in some type because it's a web app so same with Mutiny yeah. 01:47:37.989 --> 01:47:38.949 Okay, 01:47:42.069 --> 01:47:45.449 I don't know all this is coming to me like, 01:47:46.649 --> 01:47:51.589 All of this is saying to me that we're, you know, basically a lot of these problems 01:47:51.589 --> 01:47:54.789 go away if you've run a daemon somewhere. 01:47:55.189 --> 01:47:55.729 Yes. 01:47:56.009 --> 01:48:03.029 And I think like, whether that is on some sort of cloud thing or, 01:48:03.029 --> 01:48:07.709 you know, whatever, but this is, this is like the fundamental problem we're coming back to. 01:48:07.849 --> 01:48:12.069 It's like, we need these things need always on computers somewhere. 01:48:12.429 --> 01:48:15.129 And if you have that and you can either. 01:48:15.829 --> 01:48:23.109 For the player side, it can be similar to Ember, for example. 01:48:23.349 --> 01:48:28.989 Ember is a Nostra signer that runs on your phone, and any Nostra app running 01:48:28.989 --> 01:48:30.409 on that phone can just use it. 01:48:30.509 --> 01:48:31.129 Sure, sure. 01:48:31.329 --> 01:48:33.649 You can do the kind of same thing. 01:48:34.369 --> 01:48:37.929 Yeah, okay. Okay, that's good to clarify. Yeah, the sender, I guess, 01:48:38.029 --> 01:48:40.029 can be asynchronous kind of in and out. 01:48:40.029 --> 01:48:44.269 But like, I think it, but it seems like in this kind of, if we're trying to 01:48:44.269 --> 01:48:50.509 make this circular parallel society where it is like, everybody is both the 01:48:50.509 --> 01:48:54.169 sender and receiver, then it really seems like. 01:48:54.589 --> 01:48:57.509 Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, you are right. 01:48:57.769 --> 01:49:02.969 I would love if everyone ran their own note, but I just got an idea. 01:49:03.189 --> 01:49:11.529 So the Cashumi wallet is open source. So basically, the Podverse can just put 01:49:11.529 --> 01:49:14.649 it right in the app, like the JavaScript inside. 01:49:15.029 --> 01:49:16.709 It can run in the same type. 01:49:16.929 --> 01:49:17.289 Oh, nice. 01:49:17.889 --> 01:49:22.469 That is not a problem. So the only thing is it doesn't do key sent. 01:49:24.869 --> 01:49:25.949 Yeah, so Podverse. 01:49:26.049 --> 01:49:29.709 But that can be like. 01:49:29.989 --> 01:49:30.669 I don't know. 01:49:30.669 --> 01:49:41.849 No, I'm very inclined to create an API call to just do a Cashu mint that just 01:49:41.849 --> 01:49:47.969 pays key sent and then I'll be Calyp's is over. 01:49:48.329 --> 01:49:52.729 And then, yeah, take the, you know, I don't think anyone have any issue with 01:49:52.729 --> 01:49:56.109 like the routing fee or whatever, you know, having. 01:49:56.349 --> 01:49:58.449 No, I don't want to run the node, but. 01:49:58.449 --> 01:50:10.809 Oh but wait but yeah I mean here's the code you know you would have this client library let's say. 01:50:13.750 --> 01:50:18.910 Client and server, and also the Cashu Mint needs to support the API call. 01:50:19.090 --> 01:50:26.390 That's the, like the client library really is, you know, here's tokens and send 01:50:26.390 --> 01:50:28.950 them to this node and this description. 01:50:29.590 --> 01:50:34.970 I, you know, I think Cashu really for these kind of small payments is really nice. 01:50:35.290 --> 01:50:39.270 Like the amount of, that's kind of what I was kind of like hinting at with this 01:50:39.270 --> 01:50:42.650 hot wallet thing is like, you know, just, 01:50:42.870 --> 01:50:46.350 I mean, it's the no one is sending amount where 01:50:46.350 --> 01:50:49.250 this is going to be an issue and it's like everyone's using 01:50:49.250 --> 01:50:52.190 their phones anyway so if i don't to 01:50:52.190 --> 01:50:58.910 me the Cashu and what i like about the cashew mint model is yeah it really 01:50:58.910 --> 01:51:04.810 can be pushed down to uncle jim or get some service doing it like it you know 01:51:04.810 --> 01:51:09.870 from from albie's point of view if it was running i mean albie would probably you know it could run 01:51:10.310 --> 01:51:16.650 and it would all you know yes it would no longer be i know it's then i don't know i guess it's a 01:51:17.090 --> 01:51:20.230 legalese of whether it's not it actually is custodying funds but if it's not 01:51:20.230 --> 01:51:28.790 holding the tokens you know there could be an argument it has the stats so but like let's. 01:51:28.790 --> 01:51:34.930 Not let's let's not even even go like what is illegal like if you do it for your family or. 01:51:34.930 --> 01:51:37.350 That's the better way yeah That's completely the better way. 01:51:39.050 --> 01:51:42.510 But then you can do this also with AlbiHub. 01:51:44.030 --> 01:51:49.930 Yeah. Okay. I'm just, yeah. So I guess, you know, out of all, yeah. 01:51:50.130 --> 01:51:53.570 So I mean, okay, let me try to summarize everything we're talking about. 01:51:53.710 --> 01:52:02.210 So like, there is, I'm going to look at your chart here. Okay. 01:52:02.750 --> 01:52:06.690 And then we have the receiver side. So maybe we should summarize after or... 01:52:06.690 --> 01:52:07.310 Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. 01:52:08.572 --> 01:52:16.972 So receiver side, I think Bolt 12 would be the easiest. No port forwarding, no DNS, no HTTPS. 01:52:17.892 --> 01:52:22.412 It's not much more chatty. It is a little bit more chatty, but we are chatty anyway. 01:52:23.712 --> 01:52:30.612 It's not super widely supported. So I think, honestly, Bolt 12 in two years 01:52:30.612 --> 01:52:35.432 will be the choice and we would have to deprecate everything else. 01:52:36.392 --> 01:52:39.712 But we'll see anyway, 01:52:41.052 --> 01:52:49.492 my question is do we need to support Keysend in the future depends on what users 01:52:49.492 --> 01:52:53.492 will switch to after Albicalyps maybe not even well. 01:52:53.492 --> 01:52:59.472 The one thing I think is I think one thing that is that people like about Keysend 01:52:59.472 --> 01:53:03.592 is this sending this message with the payment and I don't. 01:53:03.592 --> 01:53:09.132 You can do that with Bolt12, definitely, and also with LNURL. 01:53:09.172 --> 01:53:13.712 Okay, because I feel like there was some discussion where it became difficult 01:53:13.712 --> 01:53:18.532 to send some sort of message with the payment and some other of the payment methods. 01:53:19.452 --> 01:53:24.892 But I'm… Oh, interesting. Yeah, I think this was… I remember that being talked 01:53:24.892 --> 01:53:29.252 about, but I don't know, unfortunately, the details there. 01:53:29.532 --> 01:53:33.132 Okay, but… Okay, so… Okay. 01:53:33.592 --> 01:53:41.692 And my question is if it would be wise to do like multiple options, 01:53:41.692 --> 01:53:45.172 like say, you know, I did this podcast, 01:53:45.612 --> 01:53:50.352 this is Uri, this is my note, you can send me, this is my Bolt 12, 01:53:50.772 --> 01:53:59.632 you can pay the offer and this is my LN address and whatever your client supports, you're free to do it. 01:54:00.912 --> 01:54:04.192 I don't know there's pros and 01:54:04.192 --> 01:54:07.912 cons for having multiple options because 01:54:07.912 --> 01:54:10.832 in order to be able to 01:54:10.832 --> 01:54:20.312 receive everything or all the that people can send you the best would be to 01:54:20.312 --> 01:54:29.832 have all the options but then every podcaster would have three things which is probably not optimal, 01:54:30.692 --> 01:54:34.092 so another way to handle this is, 01:54:35.832 --> 01:54:38.952 to basically have services that 01:54:38.952 --> 01:54:45.352 would convert maybe even in like semi-castle deal way so some kind of bridges 01:54:45.352 --> 01:54:53.152 exactly so I would I would say okay here's my bolt 12 and LN address but if 01:54:53.152 --> 01:54:57.712 you want to key send me just use a bridge or something like that. 01:54:57.912 --> 01:54:58.032 Yeah. 01:54:59.080 --> 01:55:04.320 The people in the driver's seat here, I think, are really the podcast apps, right? 01:55:04.440 --> 01:55:08.500 They're the ones that are really, because I think the podcasters are going to 01:55:08.500 --> 01:55:11.220 set up whatever they can set up, but it's the apps. 01:55:11.400 --> 01:55:15.560 Without the apps, the ecosystem doesn't really exist, which is why I think, 01:55:15.580 --> 01:55:19.080 you know, like Oscar from Fountainhead and stuff is driving, 01:55:19.260 --> 01:55:20.320 they're really driving. 01:55:20.540 --> 01:55:25.420 I mean, there's a lot of also smaller apps who are really driving the thing 01:55:25.420 --> 01:55:29.840 because they're the ones that are making it easy for the users to send the payment 01:55:29.840 --> 01:55:30.860 to the content creators. 01:55:31.480 --> 01:55:36.240 So I don't know if they care, to your question about, do you need to support Keysend? 01:55:36.700 --> 01:55:42.000 I don't know that anyone, I've never as a listener being like, 01:55:42.140 --> 01:55:46.420 oh, this is actually going, it's not really up front in my mind that this is Keysend. 01:55:46.600 --> 01:55:48.280 To me, I'm sending a lightning payment. 01:55:48.820 --> 01:55:51.580 So I don't know that it has to be that. 01:55:51.720 --> 01:55:55.660 The question is what, like, 01:55:55.660 --> 01:55:58.540 let's take the example you know i have a guest on my 01:55:58.540 --> 01:56:01.700 podcast they're not lightning gurus 01:56:01.700 --> 01:56:05.140 they yeah right they just so so basically actually 01:56:05.140 --> 01:56:08.360 uh when i when i sell it to them you know you should 01:56:08.360 --> 01:56:12.160 have these i i always tell them to use fountain and 01:56:12.160 --> 01:56:15.140 i'm not saying to them you will receive 01:56:15.140 --> 01:56:18.740 money because they will receive 3 000 sets unfortunately 01:56:18.740 --> 01:56:21.780 we're sending micro payments waiting for 01:56:21.780 --> 01:56:24.520 the boosts to and yeah and so on for 01:56:24.520 --> 01:56:27.280 this podcast but uh uh but what i'm 01:56:27.280 --> 01:56:29.940 telling them is this is a way to interact with the 01:56:29.940 --> 01:56:33.280 audience so if they have a comment they can send a boost with 01:56:33.280 --> 01:56:36.380 a comment and you can see it in your fountain 01:56:36.380 --> 01:56:39.400 app and you can like you can kind of 01:56:39.400 --> 01:56:42.760 right live with the podcast this is a commenting section 01:56:42.760 --> 01:56:46.540 of the podcast you know yes so uh 01:56:46.540 --> 01:56:49.500 but then you know I don't want 01:56:49.500 --> 01:56:52.520 them to because the guest can 01:56:52.520 --> 01:56:59.580 be whatever an Austrian economist that has a phone and they don't run their 01:56:59.580 --> 01:57:07.940 node and this is actually a way how I want to onboard them so it needs to be 01:57:07.940 --> 01:57:11.040 easy also on the receiver side I don't think, 01:57:12.160 --> 01:57:20.540 but it is easy with Fountain it is easy it is custodial for the 3,000 sets that they will get. 01:57:20.660 --> 01:57:21.080 Right, right, right. 01:57:21.280 --> 01:57:21.360 Yeah. 01:57:24.560 --> 01:57:29.780 Another thing is, of course, like, for example, many of them have a Phoenix 01:57:29.780 --> 01:57:33.280 wallet, so they also have a Bolt 12 already. 01:57:34.912 --> 01:57:43.972 So they usually have Bolt 12 before they have a key sent and lightning address. 01:57:45.092 --> 01:57:50.452 Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I guess even in that case, honestly, 01:57:50.572 --> 01:57:54.072 even all the stuff we talked about, they honestly really don't even care what 01:57:54.072 --> 01:57:59.212 the thing is. It's just a matter of how does somebody onboard. 01:58:02.392 --> 01:58:05.112 I think we were talking about this earlier. it's like the 01:58:05.112 --> 01:58:07.812 medium is the message right so you you have you have the 01:58:07.812 --> 01:58:11.152 fact that you're getting some sort of bitcoin payment is the 01:58:11.152 --> 01:58:14.072 message right that is you know that is it's 01:58:14.072 --> 01:58:16.972 like oh and then here is the you know there so that 01:58:16.972 --> 01:58:19.992 is driving this thing and uh 01:58:19.992 --> 01:58:22.792 there's all this comment that is with it is riding with it 01:58:22.792 --> 01:58:26.152 that is like the combined like 01:58:26.152 --> 01:58:29.192 oh you know it's the similar to 01:58:29.192 --> 01:58:31.992 someone sending me a postcard you know it's like that if 01:58:31.992 --> 01:58:34.792 i'm forcing them to post right it's like how do you want 01:58:34.792 --> 01:58:37.532 to communicate with this and then it's you know 01:58:37.532 --> 01:58:40.372 so i yeah i i have all this 01:58:40.372 --> 01:58:44.052 i think a lot of the to bring it to a higher level the 01:58:44.052 --> 01:58:49.032 and you know the it's this is like the onboarding discussion but and and onboarding 01:58:49.032 --> 01:58:53.372 i think is always going to be difficult in a decentralized world like it's not 01:58:53.372 --> 01:58:57.512 people want to keep making onboarding easier but you only make onboarding easier 01:58:57.512 --> 01:59:02.912 when centralized players you know come into it like they're you know this is, 01:59:04.412 --> 01:59:05.932 the pros and cons. 01:59:06.272 --> 01:59:10.772 People want decentralization, but also easy onboarding. And I think, 01:59:12.792 --> 01:59:14.832 there's a... I don't think they understand. 01:59:15.072 --> 01:59:19.772 I don't think it needs to be too easy. I don't want the normies. 01:59:20.432 --> 01:59:21.732 Right, yeah, that's what I'm saying. 01:59:21.852 --> 01:59:25.292 It doesn't... But there is... 01:59:25.292 --> 01:59:32.512 It shouldn't involve sinking Bitcoin blockchain in the basement node for two 01:59:32.512 --> 01:59:37.072 days and setting up SSH keys and so there's... 01:59:38.117 --> 01:59:43.517 Well, yeah, no, but like, you know, if we can throw, so all of this is assuming 01:59:43.517 --> 01:59:46.457 that it's hard to run a Bitcoin node, right? 01:59:46.537 --> 01:59:51.757 But that's basically, we've taken the assumption it's hard to run this Bitcoin node. 01:59:52.197 --> 01:59:55.077 And because that's hard, we've been dancing around all this. 01:59:55.257 --> 01:59:58.477 The other thing is it could just become easier to do that, right? 01:59:58.497 --> 02:00:02.997 You can imagine, I mean, hardware, you know, is getting, is always getting hard. 02:00:02.997 --> 02:00:08.117 The only thing that is, you know, deflationary is computer hardware, right? 02:00:08.357 --> 02:00:12.137 It just keeps getting cheaper. It's the only other consumer product that just keeps getting cheaper. 02:00:12.877 --> 02:00:17.117 So, I mean, there is going to be, you know, a time where, like, 02:00:17.317 --> 02:00:21.757 I mean, I just recently got a, like, small mini notebook thing, 02:00:21.977 --> 02:00:24.597 a notebook or, like, a B-Link kind of computer. 02:00:24.597 --> 02:00:27.737 I think it was like 249 for like 02:00:27.737 --> 02:00:31.497 a 32 gigabyte ram 500 gigabyte 02:00:31.497 --> 02:00:34.117 uh nvme and it was like 02:00:34.117 --> 02:00:37.477 an intel i5 or something so i mean these you know i think it would probably 02:00:37.477 --> 02:00:42.317 obviously you'd want more storage but like that's pretty reasonable for like 02:00:42.317 --> 02:00:45.477 uh and it's a pretty lowish power i think it was like 50 watts or something 02:00:45.477 --> 02:00:48.937 like this but you know eventually those are going to also come down i guess 02:00:48.937 --> 02:00:50.237 that's my other point here is 02:00:50.237 --> 02:00:53.977 that the hardware we can we can just take advantage of the fact of that. 02:00:54.217 --> 02:00:56.357 I mean, we can keep trying to solve this with software. 02:00:57.184 --> 02:01:00.824 In a year, the hardware will be cheaper and faster. In another year, you know what? 02:01:01.304 --> 02:01:07.284 And a hardware wallet is what, 79 euros for Trezor Safe 3? 02:01:07.644 --> 02:01:11.424 Yeah, exactly. Right, so that's another, you're getting a whole Intel thing 02:01:11.424 --> 02:01:13.224 with a GPU and everything. 02:01:13.884 --> 02:01:17.984 And yeah, or you can get two, you can get, you know, one and a half hardware. 02:01:18.064 --> 02:01:24.384 I think everyone should have a note for like, like for Bitcoin, 02:01:24.724 --> 02:01:27.784 for photos, for backups, 02:01:28.404 --> 02:01:34.444 for home camera systems, like you shouldn't upload it to Chinese cloud. 02:01:35.384 --> 02:01:36.204 Yeah, right, right. 02:01:38.644 --> 02:01:44.044 And soon, hopefully, some kind of AI, like local inference. 02:01:44.564 --> 02:01:47.004 I'm very much for it. 02:01:47.784 --> 02:01:52.384 Actually, I wrote a small book on Cypherpunk visions. 02:01:52.984 --> 02:01:59.484 And there I was kind of hoping for it's not a book with predictions. 02:01:59.484 --> 02:02:04.644 It's my like hopium and it didn't talk about Bitcoin price, 02:02:04.764 --> 02:02:11.224 but there's a chapter about like home nodes and they're useful for many things 02:02:11.224 --> 02:02:16.704 besides running whatever Bitcoin light node. 02:02:16.704 --> 02:02:20.324 You know you can you can really do useful things 02:02:20.324 --> 02:02:24.164 at home control whatever iot 02:02:24.164 --> 02:02:32.384 and exactly and like everyone already has a router at home some sort of router 02:02:32.384 --> 02:02:39.164 some sort of with access point you want your laptop backups like where do actually 02:02:39.164 --> 02:02:42.404 uh apple stopped making these time 02:02:42.544 --> 02:02:46.784 machines or time capsules, they had these ones. 02:02:49.410 --> 02:02:53.470 And so where do people keep their backups now? 02:02:53.610 --> 02:02:58.990 They run a NAS or plug in a hard drive or something? 02:02:59.150 --> 02:03:03.690 So it's like many people actually already have some kind of node. 02:03:04.290 --> 02:03:11.610 But it should be easier to run a Lightning node. Phoenix D is amazing, actually, for this. 02:03:12.730 --> 02:03:15.650 Yeah, I guess the, I mean, even in the, I don't know, 02:03:15.650 --> 02:03:19.550 even in the intermediary or intermediate um you 02:03:19.550 --> 02:03:22.250 know if you you could just do i mean so not quite as something 02:03:22.250 --> 02:03:25.030 as like voltage where you're like getting like lightning nodes as 02:03:25.030 --> 02:03:27.790 a service but like if you just spun off if you 02:03:27.790 --> 02:03:31.010 if there was a cloud someone someone basically gets a hetzner 02:03:31.010 --> 02:03:34.070 box and then they say okay i'm gonna proxmox or 02:03:34.070 --> 02:03:37.030 whatever vm out this thing i'm gonna spin up a bunch of virtual 02:03:37.030 --> 02:03:39.810 nodes for people uh you know 02:03:39.810 --> 02:03:43.650 from their point of you know they look like they're hosting it services and 02:03:43.650 --> 02:03:47.310 then it's like you as you use that to get 02:03:47.310 --> 02:03:49.930 thing until people like decide to bring it back i mean 02:03:49.930 --> 02:03:52.790 i don't know it's just it's like i get 02:03:52.790 --> 02:03:56.990 the part of the i think the frustration here is like we're dancing around the 02:03:56.990 --> 02:04:01.030 problem that people just can't you know you know we're trying to trying to make 02:04:01.030 --> 02:04:06.070 it easy for people like you said the guy the austrian economics guy with just 02:04:06.070 --> 02:04:11.150 a phone but it's like at what point do you bend over backwards to i mean that 02:04:11.150 --> 02:04:12.350 could also be another solution, 02:04:12.510 --> 02:04:14.610 right? It's just like, say, screw it. We're not going to do Keysend. 02:04:14.730 --> 02:04:18.830 We're going to stay on Keysend, and if you want to participate, you've got to run a node. 02:04:18.970 --> 02:04:22.950 I mean, that's also another option, and just see who sticks around. 02:04:23.643 --> 02:04:26.603 But it can be custodial as well. 02:04:26.883 --> 02:04:32.143 I think, yeah, like this is what I like about Bitcoin and like free software 02:04:32.143 --> 02:04:35.063 open source is that there are many options. 02:04:35.223 --> 02:04:40.203 There's like, you can, like, you know, with the Bitcoin thing. 02:04:41.003 --> 02:04:43.383 You know, I don't know what wallet you run. 02:04:43.523 --> 02:04:45.663 It just works with any other wallet. 02:04:45.923 --> 02:04:51.203 So, and people are experimenting and some people take risks. 02:04:51.203 --> 02:04:54.383 Some people uh you know grandmas 02:04:54.383 --> 02:04:57.643 use etfs and like 02:04:57.643 --> 02:05:00.683 yeah anyone can do whatever they want so that that's 02:05:00.683 --> 02:05:03.723 what's nice and and i think this is what we should keep so 02:05:03.723 --> 02:05:07.783 that's another thing i didn't super 02:05:07.783 --> 02:05:11.963 like about the the podcast we 02:05:11.963 --> 02:05:15.083 were mentioning we should put the link to it which by 02:05:15.083 --> 02:05:18.303 the way i i really like the podcast but this this 02:05:18.303 --> 02:05:22.023 particular part was like when they were playing with 02:05:22.023 --> 02:05:25.203 strike i'm like okay strike yes you 02:05:25.203 --> 02:05:28.643 have like your site is tied to 02:05:28.643 --> 02:05:34.343 u.s and few other countries and people who can do kyc who can actually have 02:05:34.343 --> 02:05:40.963 the papers uh passport with the correct logo but there are many people who just 02:05:40.963 --> 02:05:46.443 can't do that yeah um so i think the message here is that, 02:05:46.743 --> 02:05:55.563 or my wish, I don't know, message, but my wish is that we keep it as open as possible. 02:05:55.823 --> 02:05:57.923 And like, they were not against it, of course. 02:05:58.023 --> 02:05:58.443 Yeah, right, right. 02:05:58.683 --> 02:06:00.583 They didn't say that it's the only solution. 02:06:02.823 --> 02:06:10.123 But like the first options I would consider would be those that are most available. 02:06:10.523 --> 02:06:17.463 And again, like fountain here, you can even buy sats on a fountain with like 02:06:17.463 --> 02:06:18.503 Google Pay and Apple Pay. 02:06:18.623 --> 02:06:21.163 You don't even need to know what Bitcoin is. 02:06:21.740 --> 02:06:22.660 Oh, really? I didn't know that. 02:06:23.000 --> 02:06:28.040 Yeah, yes. You can just top it up probably for a high fee. I don't know. 02:06:28.340 --> 02:06:29.460 I didn't even know that. 02:06:30.580 --> 02:06:35.660 But it's like you can onboard people to this value for value thing even if they 02:06:35.660 --> 02:06:38.540 don't know what Bitcoin is. So it's quite nice. 02:06:39.220 --> 02:06:45.880 Yeah, I mean, Fountain's definitely the main one I'm using. My only... 02:06:46.440 --> 02:06:48.500 I love Fountain. I think Oscar's doing a great job. 02:06:50.740 --> 02:06:56.420 Sadly, I think as it got, I mean, it's got to be difficult as the app developer, 02:06:56.600 --> 02:07:00.920 but I feel like it got better with Noster integration and it has some very cool 02:07:00.920 --> 02:07:03.560 features with paying and stuff, but then it got worse as a podcast player. 02:07:04.360 --> 02:07:08.900 Like I, it just does weird things for me, like when I play and then I come back 02:07:08.900 --> 02:07:14.640 to the app and then it has like the other episode or it's just like, so, yeah, so sadly. 02:07:14.640 --> 02:07:20.260 I reported this back and Oscar said that it should be fixed, 02:07:20.480 --> 02:07:23.600 but I think it's not as fixed as…. 02:07:24.324 --> 02:07:25.384 I would hope. 02:07:26.164 --> 02:07:34.804 For me, I have this project now that's called Loaded For Me. Loaded For.me. 02:07:35.084 --> 02:07:35.444 Yeah. 02:07:35.884 --> 02:07:40.624 And I don't have a business model for it. 02:07:40.724 --> 02:07:46.504 So basically what it does is you register. I don't even ask for an email. 02:07:46.684 --> 02:07:49.684 It just make up username and password. 02:07:50.964 --> 02:07:54.624 And you give it a link to an article. and 02:07:54.624 --> 02:07:57.444 it turns it into a podcast episode in your 02:07:57.444 --> 02:08:00.504 own private podcast feed so if you can't 02:08:00.504 --> 02:08:03.664 read podcasts or don't have time yeah right you 02:08:03.664 --> 02:08:07.084 have your own private podcast um so i 02:08:07.084 --> 02:08:09.904 thought that i would just add value tag for 02:08:09.904 --> 02:08:12.884 it uh because you know i run the software 02:08:12.884 --> 02:08:15.844 it's running uh right behind me 02:08:15.844 --> 02:08:19.284 uh so uh uh so 02:08:19.284 --> 02:08:22.284 not uh like a server infrastructure it's running on 02:08:22.284 --> 02:08:25.124 mac mini so i thought okay it would be neat to 02:08:25.124 --> 02:08:28.624 have value tag there yeah uh but fountain 02:08:28.624 --> 02:08:33.384 for some reason is not sending sets 02:08:33.384 --> 02:08:36.724 if it's a private rss feed so if 02:08:36.724 --> 02:08:39.484 i just edit manually as an rss feed 02:08:39.484 --> 02:08:42.444 which is custom for you it's not a podcast index or 02:08:42.444 --> 02:08:45.324 anywhere else yeah yeah it just doesn't stream sets at 02:08:45.324 --> 02:08:51.864 all so oh interesting so that's another bug uh but i don't like i switched to 02:08:51.864 --> 02:08:57.864 fountain like i use Pocket Cast before which was a really good podcast player 02:08:57.864 --> 02:09:02.924 by the way I think still is but doesn't do doesn't do payments. 02:09:04.524 --> 02:09:12.704 So I'm happy with Fountain it has its box custodial wallet but it's I. 02:09:12.704 --> 02:09:17.984 Think I agree Pocket Cast also, 02:09:18.864 --> 02:09:23.544 for example the one thing is that when you're in the car, Pocket Cast will actually 02:09:23.544 --> 02:09:28.384 pause the audio of the podcast, play the car navigation, and then resume. 02:09:29.042 --> 02:09:36.062 Where most other podcasts will just soften the background. 02:09:36.482 --> 02:09:39.262 Oh, yeah, that's right. I didn't notice it, but you're right. 02:09:39.582 --> 02:09:42.222 This is amazing about Pocket, because when you're listening to something, 02:09:42.282 --> 02:09:43.322 you actually want to hear it. 02:09:44.042 --> 02:09:47.622 Just lowering the volume doesn't cut it. You actually have to pause it. 02:09:47.722 --> 02:09:50.342 And a podcast is one of the few that has this feature. 02:09:50.762 --> 02:09:51.122 Okay. 02:09:51.482 --> 02:09:55.082 Yeah. So, unfortunately, this is what I mean by, like, you know, 02:09:55.082 --> 02:10:00.262 As a podcast player, I think Pocket Cast is probably one of the top ones. 02:10:00.382 --> 02:10:03.662 I like the feature that it's trimming the silence. 02:10:03.922 --> 02:10:08.402 Like when you listen to Lex Friedman and he thinks for 15 seconds. 02:10:08.682 --> 02:10:08.882 Right. 02:10:08.962 --> 02:10:12.442 I don't really need to wait. Let him do the thinking. 02:10:12.922 --> 02:10:15.222 Yes. Yeah. So it has some of these nice. Yeah. 02:10:15.382 --> 02:10:16.082 Yeah. Yeah. 02:10:16.262 --> 02:10:20.002 Okay. Okay. So let's try to summarize. 02:10:20.822 --> 02:10:21.062 Yes. 02:10:21.062 --> 02:10:24.142 Let's try to do a nice. Steve. I'll try to do this here. 02:10:24.142 --> 02:10:27.822 And then uh okay so we talked about types 02:10:27.822 --> 02:10:30.782 of lightning payments of which uh 02:10:30.782 --> 02:10:33.902 you know you had basically had three things we 02:10:33.902 --> 02:10:38.422 got key send which is like the og what currently podcasting is running on now 02:10:38.422 --> 02:10:44.282 the main one and then there's invoice based ones uh which are bolt 11 and bolt 02:10:44.282 --> 02:10:49.102 12 and then this kind of third method is a kind of Cashu kind of hybrid thing 02:10:49.102 --> 02:10:52.502 so these are like in the Lightning ecosystem, you can do these things. 02:10:53.342 --> 02:10:58.642 And then, okay, so then going, how does this work with value? 02:10:59.442 --> 02:11:02.882 The current method is keysend. So that's what everyone's doing. 02:11:03.982 --> 02:11:13.182 Invoicing with alt 11 has this kind of awkward issue of with an ln URL. 02:11:13.182 --> 02:11:19.022 You gotta get the ln URL, which needs something to communicate back to the node. 02:11:19.682 --> 02:11:25.142 And with an LN address, it is a nice way to look up the LN URL. 02:11:26.102 --> 02:11:29.722 But then there's like the Stoldest Bridge thing. And then the only thing I think 02:11:29.722 --> 02:11:33.042 we didn't talk about, but what I think those podcasts, what the podcasting 2.0 02:11:33.042 --> 02:11:38.462 thing was talking about was using an LN URL with this options JSON section, 02:11:38.682 --> 02:11:44.622 which would then possibly have a KeySend address in it as a backwards compatibility layer. 02:11:45.202 --> 02:11:46.142 Oh, cool. 02:11:46.142 --> 02:11:53.602 So the idea would be, and I think Oscar was even trying to push this to get it in the LNURL spec, 02:11:53.842 --> 02:11:57.982 but one kind of transition thing would be everyone set, all the podcasters set 02:11:57.982 --> 02:12:02.042 up LNURLs, which still breaks all the existing podcasts. 02:12:02.182 --> 02:12:05.882 We switch over to LNURL, but then you have this options field, 02:12:05.902 --> 02:12:08.462 which then can have multiple different payment methods. 02:12:08.462 --> 02:12:14.322 Currently would have keysend vault 11 and then you know vault 12 when that comes 02:12:14.322 --> 02:12:18.482 along you would just add that to your options JSON so you why. 02:12:18.482 --> 02:12:27.562 Not add it to the RSS specification of the value recipient that would be better I think. 02:12:28.881 --> 02:12:32.521 Okay, so then in the value tag, you want to put, well, so that's one. 02:12:32.661 --> 02:12:37.781 Here's my keysend, here's my bold URL, here's my bold 12. 02:12:38.081 --> 02:12:44.541 Yeah, that's an interesting point. Yeah, because then it already has the keysend 02:12:44.541 --> 02:12:47.501 address, so you could just have the XML pick whatever. 02:12:47.881 --> 02:12:51.341 Yeah, why bother doing the lookup? I feel, yeah, okay, all right. That would be good. 02:12:51.541 --> 02:12:56.701 Because then there is something you need to look up, and then there's some server that needs to do this. 02:12:56.701 --> 02:12:58.441 Yeah, you already have the RSS. 02:12:58.861 --> 02:13:05.721 And it would also break the compatibility because the old apps that understand 02:13:05.721 --> 02:13:10.161 the old RSS feeds would not understand this. 02:13:10.581 --> 02:13:12.881 So I would say, you know, it's just ads. 02:13:13.481 --> 02:13:16.521 Yeah, just change the XML to have a different option. 02:13:18.841 --> 02:13:21.681 Especially in a backward compatible way. 02:13:22.021 --> 02:13:27.181 Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I would send that to him because i'm not sure okay 02:13:27.181 --> 02:13:31.801 so that that one i feel yeah okay i'm not sure okay okay so then uh, 02:13:32.401 --> 02:13:35.941 uh then let's see so then but yeah ball 12 the 02:13:35.941 --> 02:13:38.681 benefit so i had mentioned the two benefits the ball 12 02:13:38.681 --> 02:13:41.801 were the privacy for the sender you have 02:13:41.801 --> 02:13:45.181 the static qr code and the thing that you informed me 02:13:45.181 --> 02:13:48.381 about today was that it basically the 02:13:48.381 --> 02:13:51.241 third marketing bullet is that it communicates only through 02:13:51.241 --> 02:13:54.041 the lightning network so we eliminate all the web 02:13:54.041 --> 02:13:57.061 2 stuff so those are the three marketing bullets of 02:13:57.061 --> 02:14:01.101 why people should care about bulk 12 um okay 02:14:01.101 --> 02:14:05.001 nostr has similar problems is 02:14:05.001 --> 02:14:08.381 you know basically if you think of nostr content creators as 02:14:08.381 --> 02:14:11.381 podcasters they're content creators they have similar issues they 02:14:11.381 --> 02:14:14.181 want to get paid uh or they can 02:14:14.181 --> 02:14:17.081 get paid in payment so 02:14:17.081 --> 02:14:20.261 it's really a similar group so i think your thesis is 02:14:20.261 --> 02:14:23.121 trying to think about them similarly so we solve it 02:14:23.121 --> 02:14:26.101 kind of like more generically for this 02:14:26.101 --> 02:14:32.961 kind of situation um uh and then yeah so then lightning wallets we have you 02:14:32.961 --> 02:14:38.661 know basically that stole the same case non-custodial custodial you know run 02:14:38.661 --> 02:14:45.021 a server don't run a server this is going to be the trade-off like forever this problem is just uh. 02:14:46.015 --> 02:14:50.975 You just have to decide whether or not it's worth it to do all this or you'd 02:14:50.975 --> 02:14:54.855 be okay with the custodial solutions, right? Way forwards. 02:14:55.115 --> 02:15:00.275 Well, you can run a non-custodial wallet on your phone, but just not to receive. 02:15:00.795 --> 02:15:04.395 Okay, yeah. And then there was other, the other kind of interesting one there, 02:15:04.555 --> 02:15:07.295 which I'm kind of thinking about, is that green light model. 02:15:08.495 --> 02:15:11.435 Fortunately, unfortunately, kind of locked to green light. 02:15:11.435 --> 02:15:14.215 But i'm i'm kind of like the thing that when you were mentioning 02:15:14.215 --> 02:15:17.335 this i'm wondering is like if it would be nice if there was a more generic 02:15:17.335 --> 02:15:20.335 way where people could run imagine like 02:15:20.335 --> 02:15:23.855 you can run open some other lightning service provider could 02:15:23.855 --> 02:15:27.115 run a green light model where they run the nodes and 02:15:27.115 --> 02:15:30.675 then allow people to do it like that would be interesting i 02:15:30.675 --> 02:15:34.035 think um but right now currently only blockstream has 02:15:34.035 --> 02:15:37.055 this capability okay and then yeah way forward 02:15:37.055 --> 02:15:39.935 you get really this is uh there's two sides 02:15:39.935 --> 02:15:44.715 to keep thinking about the payer side and the payee side um and 02:15:44.715 --> 02:15:47.375 uh yeah kind of like i think the kind of thing 02:15:47.375 --> 02:15:50.215 that you're bringing up is like trying to make this thinking about 02:15:50.215 --> 02:15:52.955 how it works in a web kind of progressive we didn't mention we 02:15:52.955 --> 02:15:57.735 didn't talk about progressive web apps but really web kind of like client things 02:15:57.735 --> 02:16:03.295 making sure it's compatible there and then the receiver side you know all those 02:16:03.295 --> 02:16:09.115 same issues like again vault 12 is the seems to be the kind of standard where 02:16:09.115 --> 02:16:12.495 we're no longer need dns everything's lightning network. 02:16:13.215 --> 02:16:16.615 Unfortunately not going to be ready for albi clips 02:16:16.615 --> 02:16:19.355 so there's this thing in the middle 02:16:19.355 --> 02:16:22.335 maybe um but all this 02:16:22.335 --> 02:16:25.915 is to say that uh yeah so 02:16:25.915 --> 02:16:29.775 so so yeah it's all very it's it's 02:16:29.775 --> 02:16:32.695 i i hate i don't want to say it's all very new because i feel like everyone says 02:16:32.695 --> 02:16:35.895 it but like this is uh i mean this is just the the 02:16:35.895 --> 02:16:38.915 i actually don't think this is gonna really you know 02:16:38.915 --> 02:16:41.935 this this is to me is what the 02:16:41.935 --> 02:16:44.635 whole ecosystem is about like we're building all this from the 02:16:44.635 --> 02:16:47.255 ground up like so i don't even like the i don't 02:16:47.255 --> 02:16:50.775 know that they say like the word new or early or whatever but like we're all 02:16:50.775 --> 02:16:55.995 contributing to this collective idea of what we understand this is what it is 02:16:55.995 --> 02:16:59.995 we want and it's being built out in kind of like this small little anarchist 02:16:59.995 --> 02:17:05.295 groups of things so i mean this is this This is just what you, 02:17:05.515 --> 02:17:06.755 this is just how this works. 02:17:07.075 --> 02:17:08.335 This is Bitbunk. 02:17:08.715 --> 02:17:13.215 Yeah, this is Bitbunk. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So this is it. 02:17:13.295 --> 02:17:14.415 This is the nature of the beast. 02:17:14.595 --> 02:17:18.275 Like, you know, I don't think this is ever going to, I don't know, 02:17:18.435 --> 02:17:21.275 I don't think this is ever really going to change from this, really. 02:17:21.515 --> 02:17:29.395 Because like I said, you can get it to be easier, but then you're on Coinbase and that's super easy. 02:17:30.435 --> 02:17:35.195 And we could have that, you know. but like that's that's the alternative or 02:17:35.195 --> 02:17:38.935 you have to be work in this thing where now it's relationship based you know 02:17:38.935 --> 02:17:43.615 you have to talk you're talking to people working this out you know and I think that's, 02:17:44.382 --> 02:17:49.302 Like there is no, I guess what I'm saying is there, I think people say we're 02:17:49.302 --> 02:17:51.922 so early imagining a future where this gets easier. 02:17:52.302 --> 02:17:54.622 I'm saying this is not going to get easier. 02:17:55.062 --> 02:17:58.962 This, we're here, we're in the future. Like this is, this is it. 02:17:59.082 --> 02:18:01.942 Like this isn't going to get, this is going to be this forever. 02:18:02.662 --> 02:18:05.742 Or we adopt a Coinbase model and that's how it gets easier. 02:18:06.102 --> 02:18:10.402 It is, it is going to be easier for the users, I think. 02:18:10.402 --> 02:18:14.302 But imagine from the other side uh 02:18:14.302 --> 02:18:17.782 like i was learning like 02:18:17.782 --> 02:18:21.582 coding and things in like 02:18:21.582 --> 02:18:26.422 early 1990s and like 02:18:26.422 --> 02:18:29.922 i can't imagine how anyone 02:18:29.922 --> 02:18:32.662 could learn what i 02:18:32.662 --> 02:18:35.802 know now about the current technologies like from 02:18:35.802 --> 02:18:38.822 the start like i wouldn't even know where to start you know 02:18:38.822 --> 02:18:42.182 that was like zx spectrum basic 02:18:42.182 --> 02:18:45.182 right one book that was like 30 02:18:45.182 --> 02:18:48.562 pages long and and then 02:18:48.562 --> 02:18:55.482 you know there's like i remember like early days of bitcoin um we had a hackerspace 02:18:55.482 --> 02:19:05.262 in bratislava and we had amir taki amazing guy and he spent a lot of time in 02:19:05.262 --> 02:19:07.762 bratislava and one day he. 02:19:08.382 --> 02:19:11.222 Drew like a like a like a tree like 02:19:11.222 --> 02:19:14.282 a mind map on a on a on like 02:19:14.282 --> 02:19:17.902 this you know office uh board uh 02:19:17.902 --> 02:19:21.122 papers like like these big uh papers 02:19:21.122 --> 02:19:24.722 and he said this is 02:19:24.722 --> 02:19:27.682 everything that you can know about bitcoin 02:19:27.682 --> 02:19:31.042 like there is nothing more because he he has written uh 02:19:31.042 --> 02:19:34.122 parallel implementation which was lit bitcoin which 02:19:34.122 --> 02:19:37.222 did everything it was no it had like bitcoin script 02:19:37.222 --> 02:19:40.122 everything so i'm going to teach 02:19:40.122 --> 02:19:42.842 you everything about the technology not the 02:19:42.842 --> 02:19:45.982 philosophy but everything about the current technology 02:19:45.982 --> 02:19:49.542 of bitcoin and he spoke for i 02:19:49.542 --> 02:19:52.642 don't know uh maybe two 02:19:52.642 --> 02:19:55.882 days uh yeah uh but 02:19:55.882 --> 02:19:58.722 like we knew every byte we knew you know 02:19:58.722 --> 02:20:01.702 this is like this is these are the opcodes this is 02:20:01.702 --> 02:20:04.462 what they do this is you know what the current 02:20:04.462 --> 02:20:10.462 discussion is about but it was like one one big tree yeah but you could do it 02:20:10.462 --> 02:20:14.182 over a week right right right and then you knew everything there was to know 02:20:14.182 --> 02:20:20.042 about bitcoin yeah and uh we have been talking for two and a half hours just 02:20:20.042 --> 02:20:22.442 about ways how to send lightning payments. 02:20:23.662 --> 02:20:28.962 And we didn't even speak about the bytes. It's a very high level. 02:20:30.902 --> 02:20:37.682 It's going to get more complicated for the technological side. 02:20:37.682 --> 02:20:39.222 You're absolutely right about it. 02:20:40.346 --> 02:20:47.146 Yeah, I think that's okay. I think, you know, I think that's, yeah. 02:20:48.166 --> 02:20:53.146 I mean, no one, but that's the thing with technology. It works on abstraction layers. 02:20:53.366 --> 02:20:59.746 Like I am in the middle of like, you know, soldering things to chip pins and 02:20:59.746 --> 02:21:04.026 looking at a microscope for, you know, like JTAG pinouts. 02:21:04.246 --> 02:21:09.466 Right, but most people don't even think about this. and they can go on and do 02:21:09.466 --> 02:21:14.226 quite many things with software without realizing that there's these lower-level 02:21:14.226 --> 02:21:18.266 protocols that can change the CPU. So, yeah, I think... 02:21:18.266 --> 02:21:22.246 There is an RFC... Where is it? 02:21:23.906 --> 02:21:28.346 There's an RFC 1925, 02:21:30.726 --> 02:21:35.166 the 12th Networking Truths from 1996. 02:21:38.026 --> 02:21:49.286 And there's the number 6A, which is a corollary of six, is it is always possible 02:21:49.286 --> 02:21:51.726 to add another level of indirection. 02:21:52.026 --> 02:21:53.086 Yes, yes, yes. 02:21:53.286 --> 02:22:00.826 It's a very good RFC. Yeah. So this is what this podcast and our discussion has been about. 02:22:01.166 --> 02:22:01.806 Yeah, exactly. 02:22:01.806 --> 02:22:10.486 Layers of indirection, you know, lightning and Bitcoin and LN address and LN 02:22:10.486 --> 02:22:16.146 URL and you go look up something here and there and there's DNS. 02:22:16.446 --> 02:22:17.126 Right. Yeah, exactly. 02:22:17.426 --> 02:22:18.286 Exactly. Yeah. 02:22:18.806 --> 02:22:19.146 Yeah. 02:22:19.748 --> 02:22:24.688 Okay, I think, yeah, this, well, I mean, I think this helped. 02:22:25.968 --> 02:22:29.288 I definitely now feel a lot more clear on all the different options. 02:22:30.248 --> 02:22:34.068 You definitely did the lion's share here with this. I don't know if you're going 02:22:34.068 --> 02:22:36.808 to make this mind map. I think people would really appreciate this. 02:22:36.988 --> 02:22:43.168 I can share it. I didn't update it with your inputs, though, so it's just this. 02:22:43.728 --> 02:22:45.968 We didn't talk about everything, though. 02:22:46.928 --> 02:22:50.588 Yeah, well, I think that's fine. There's one last thing. 02:22:50.748 --> 02:23:00.248 There's BIP353, which is a way how to publish both 12 offers in DNS that look 02:23:00.248 --> 02:23:04.088 exactly like LN address, but use a completely different protocol. 02:23:05.248 --> 02:23:08.388 We can save that one. 02:23:08.988 --> 02:23:16.088 I think people would appreciate this because it's big enough where you, 02:23:16.308 --> 02:23:18.508 I mean, I really like MindMap. 02:23:18.508 --> 02:23:21.308 How did you make this what software did you use to make this mind map 02:23:21.308 --> 02:23:24.168 by the way x mind this one oh yeah i have the same i 02:23:24.168 --> 02:23:27.188 have x mind yeah so i thought i recognized it so yeah 02:23:27.188 --> 02:23:32.368 the um yeah so it's i personally like my maps and i think it's this something 02:23:32.368 --> 02:23:36.068 like this because you start going down a path and then you realize there's other 02:23:36.068 --> 02:23:39.008 things that connect and relate to it so it's i think yeah i think people would 02:23:39.008 --> 02:23:45.648 really like this um just make sure it has a date on it because it'll probably get stale in a month. 02:23:45.948 --> 02:23:50.188 So make it very obvious that it's, that would be my only suggestion. 02:23:52.548 --> 02:23:53.588 For Albycalypse. 02:23:53.968 --> 02:23:56.688 Yeah, exactly. Make sure it's... 02:23:56.688 --> 02:23:59.948 Or December 2024. 02:24:01.148 --> 02:24:06.688 Because it'll show up. Yeah, no, I, yeah, hopefully, if it, you know, 02:24:07.028 --> 02:24:12.628 if people tuned into all this, this, I think, was pretty exhaustive. 02:24:13.388 --> 02:24:17.648 I think what was nice to have your perspective is that although I like I said 02:24:17.648 --> 02:24:21.588 really like Oscar it's nice to have kind of like a perspective that someone 02:24:21.588 --> 02:24:23.468 who's not necessarily like, 02:24:23.968 --> 02:24:31.308 And I'm not saying he's biased, but he's an independent self-rationing, 02:24:31.308 --> 02:24:32.968 doing things in his self-interest kind of thing. 02:24:33.048 --> 02:24:37.528 So you just have to... And then with your background, with all the different 02:24:37.528 --> 02:24:38.828 payment stuff you've been messing with. 02:24:39.028 --> 02:24:45.048 So yeah, so you mentioned the pay, but let's just close out with some of the 02:24:45.048 --> 02:24:48.868 projects that you've been doing with regaining the podcasting because you just did. 02:24:48.868 --> 02:24:55.008 You've got the the one you just mentioned you've got a sea lightning uh dashboard, 02:24:56.088 --> 02:25:00.368 yeah and you just did a youtube two chapter thing yeah. 02:25:00.368 --> 02:25:03.748 But that's very simple but it's also for podcasting 2.0 02:25:03.748 --> 02:25:07.008 so basically with podcasting 2.0 you 02:25:07.008 --> 02:25:10.008 can do uh chapters like on 02:25:10.008 --> 02:25:12.708 youtube that's you have one podcast and it 02:25:12.708 --> 02:25:15.508 has like several parts we we will 02:25:15.508 --> 02:25:18.288 probably have a i will do it i use a 02:25:18.288 --> 02:25:21.228 service called alphonic for podcasting i highly 02:25:21.228 --> 02:25:24.428 recommend it uh um it fixes 02:25:24.428 --> 02:25:27.568 the audio so the levels and the noise and 02:25:27.568 --> 02:25:35.448 it will probably not erase your uh very cool background i have to check my voicemail 02:25:35.448 --> 02:25:45.608 but it basically fixes the audio with one click and it uploads it to YouTube, converts it to MP3, 02:25:46.108 --> 02:25:49.208 creates a summary, a transcript and chapters. 02:25:50.138 --> 02:25:57.818 But the chapters are in YouTube format. And for podcasting 2.0, we need it in JSON. 02:25:59.398 --> 02:26:02.898 And I don't like writing JSON by hand. 02:26:03.178 --> 02:26:10.678 So I have a small script in Python that converts it. And you can also add images. 02:26:11.018 --> 02:26:16.618 So that's nice that each chapter can have a different image. That's what you told me. 02:26:17.858 --> 02:26:24.558 And I decided to do an episode. I did an episode about meditation. 02:26:24.898 --> 02:26:29.738 Unfortunately, it's encrypted for most of you because it's in my native Slovak 02:26:29.738 --> 02:26:33.558 language, but Josh can understand it already. He's learning Slovak. 02:26:33.918 --> 02:26:34.618 A bit, yeah. 02:26:37.738 --> 02:26:44.238 And I decided to use all the podcasting 2.0 features that I can because there's 02:26:44.238 --> 02:26:51.978 a track that I did under my musician name, which is D. Ohm. 02:26:52.638 --> 02:26:58.438 I had a guest speaker who read a part of Paul Rosenberg's book, 02:26:58.438 --> 02:27:00.838 so I wanted to send splits to her. 02:27:01.058 --> 02:27:06.938 Then I'm mentioning I took a zero-gravity flight with my friend and I used the 02:27:06.938 --> 02:27:11.098 video from the parabolic flight when we are in zero G. 02:27:11.398 --> 02:27:16.538 So I sent splits to him. So it's like time-based value splits. 02:27:17.338 --> 02:27:22.858 Then for the reading, I wanted pictures for each part of the reading, 02:27:22.998 --> 02:27:24.918 different pictures, so it's kind of changing. 02:27:25.118 --> 02:27:28.978 So if you're looking at your fountain or whatever podcasting app, 02:27:29.098 --> 02:27:35.238 you get different pictures for the passage from the book. 02:27:36.258 --> 02:27:41.498 I added the transcript there, which is also a podcasting 2.0 feature, 02:27:41.678 --> 02:27:44.578 I believe. So I tried to kind of use all of this. 02:27:44.758 --> 02:27:47.558 But for the JSON, I needed this. 02:27:47.638 --> 02:27:48.718 Okay, yeah, that's amazing. 02:27:49.038 --> 02:27:49.978 That's on my GitHub. 02:27:50.878 --> 02:27:54.758 Okay, nice. I have not done... So Alphonic does the transcripts. 02:27:54.858 --> 02:27:56.918 I have not done the transcripts feature yet. 02:27:57.098 --> 02:28:01.618 And then you're hosting... What hosts are you using to have the pictures and 02:28:01.618 --> 02:28:04.058 stuff? You're using WordPress-based... 02:28:04.789 --> 02:28:08.589 Yes, I use, yeah, yeah, PowerPress. 02:28:08.909 --> 02:28:09.389 PowerPress. 02:28:09.409 --> 02:28:15.969 Blueberry is the company. PowerPress, but I'm hosting it myself because I don't 02:28:15.969 --> 02:28:17.689 want any third-party service. 02:28:17.949 --> 02:28:21.709 But that's basically generating the RSS feed. That's what it does. 02:28:21.709 --> 02:28:28.269 But it also supports value time splits and like value for value and everything. 02:28:28.869 --> 02:28:32.309 But it's pretty easy. You can upload, because for the chapters, 02:28:32.309 --> 02:28:35.149 I had to, for the chapter artwork, 02:28:35.569 --> 02:28:41.449 I had to basically upload them to like Nginx and then I had to I did it very 02:28:41.449 --> 02:28:47.629 manually, where I put a bunch of JPEGs in a folder in Nginx and then called them out by chapters. 02:28:49.089 --> 02:28:55.589 So it has a very nice chapter builder where you can just click and upload everything, 02:28:55.729 --> 02:29:02.789 but the problem is that it didn't save so I spent 20 minutes clicking it and 02:29:02.789 --> 02:29:07.369 I think the problem is that you need to kind of publish the episode first and 02:29:07.369 --> 02:29:13.149 then edit the chapters so I lost everything so I said screw it I'm not going 02:29:13.149 --> 02:29:15.649 to spend another 20 minutes clicking. 02:29:16.029 --> 02:29:19.989 Writing timestamps and choosing images. 02:29:19.989 --> 02:29:24.129 So I just took the chapters from YouTube and converted it to JSON. 02:29:24.129 --> 02:29:25.609 With the script and. 02:29:25.609 --> 02:29:28.569 It was faster to write the script than to do. 02:29:28.569 --> 02:29:32.349 It manually okay okay i see yeah yeah i 02:29:32.349 --> 02:29:38.169 think i heard they did that yeah they wanted the ability to publish the you 02:29:38.169 --> 02:29:42.029 know they wanted the ability for someone else to do the chapters basically so 02:29:42.029 --> 02:29:45.609 you can that way it's decoupled so you publish and then you can have a chapter 02:29:45.609 --> 02:29:51.869 and then you up then you update the rss to point to the chapters the chapter.json and then it allows. 02:29:51.869 --> 02:29:58.849 Yes it allows So you can have the builder or you can just give it the URL to the JSON. 02:29:59.729 --> 02:30:01.429 Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 02:30:02.470 --> 02:30:04.950 Okay, so yeah. So you're out there. 02:30:05.090 --> 02:30:07.830 And what are you up to? What are you up to? 02:30:07.830 --> 02:30:09.170 Yeah, so I've got the voicemail. 02:30:09.410 --> 02:30:09.870 And it's the new BitPunk. 02:30:10.710 --> 02:30:15.430 Yeah, the fifth, 0.5 is going to be a holiday issue. 02:30:16.410 --> 02:30:22.010 I have, there's going to be a Christmas. There's a guy named Hey Citizen who 02:30:22.010 --> 02:30:26.010 makes a bunch of decentralized music. He's got a Christmas song called It's 02:30:26.010 --> 02:30:28.770 Christmas Time Again. So we're going to pull that song in. 02:30:29.170 --> 02:30:33.470 Someone did a reading of a Christmas carol. uh also on podcasting too like a 02:30:33.470 --> 02:30:40.990 full-on five actor narration like super high quality what yes super so so uh so. 02:30:40.990 --> 02:30:43.790 So does it do a value time splits. 02:30:43.790 --> 02:30:45.270 Yeah based on when, 02:30:47.670 --> 02:30:52.930 yeah it just does the like high level value one yeah that would be pretty that 02:30:52.930 --> 02:30:56.870 would be pretty intense yeah so i'm gonna pull this in uh i did what i like 02:30:56.870 --> 02:31:01.810 about the christmas carol is that you It gets kind of pushed down as socialist propaganda, 02:31:02.070 --> 02:31:03.850 this miserly person. 02:31:04.350 --> 02:31:10.410 But I personally like the anarchist kind of interpretation of it, 02:31:10.430 --> 02:31:16.790 where you had this guy who just out of his own free will had a self-transformation event, 02:31:16.830 --> 02:31:21.150 and then realized he should be a better person without any interaction from the government. 02:31:21.150 --> 02:31:23.810 He just had this transformative experience. 02:31:24.110 --> 02:31:27.010 So this is my interpretation that I like of The Christmas Carol. 02:31:28.330 --> 02:31:31.490 So yeah so there's some I'll use some clips from that it's like a 50 minute 02:31:31.490 --> 02:31:35.710 thing so it's quite long but I'll pull it and then and then the big thing there's 02:31:35.710 --> 02:31:39.350 two things other things is I want to do a FM soldering kit, 02:31:39.811 --> 02:31:43.151 So I have 60 of these FM radios. 02:31:44.871 --> 02:31:48.551 They're quite small. They're smaller than the board is smaller than the cassette. 02:31:48.931 --> 02:31:51.411 And when you solder them up, it'll be an FM transmitter. 02:31:53.111 --> 02:31:56.431 So what I want to do on the tape is then kind of do like a solder by numbers. 02:31:56.631 --> 02:32:00.411 Like, all right, take this. So we'll go through that. And then you can take 02:32:00.411 --> 02:32:05.831 your cassette player, plug it into the thing you just soldered, 02:32:05.891 --> 02:32:08.111 and then listen on another FM receiver. 02:32:08.591 --> 02:32:10.131 And you have a pirate station. 02:32:10.131 --> 02:32:14.111 And now you have a pirate radio station yeah so it'll be quite small in like 02:32:14.111 --> 02:32:18.131 10 feet and it's a very like but it'll it'll get the idea across and then the 02:32:18.131 --> 02:32:22.431 last thing there's this book i don't have it oh i do have it um this guy on 02:32:22.431 --> 02:32:26.311 uh he actually one of the first people to leave me a voicemail um this guy wrote 02:32:26.311 --> 02:32:28.871 the book the phonics the radiophonics laboratory, 02:32:29.551 --> 02:32:33.411 and his name is justin patrick moore i knew i'm a sub stack but the conversation went like this, 02:32:33.891 --> 02:32:38.771 he's like oh I have this book I talk about like electronic music and like radio 02:32:38.771 --> 02:32:42.511 stuff and I was like do you know have you heard about Sig Sally you know from 02:32:42.511 --> 02:32:45.031 the I did that thing with talking about the 1948, 02:32:45.531 --> 02:32:49.171 analog encryption and he goes yeah I have a chapter on it in my book and I was 02:32:49.171 --> 02:32:52.831 like just give me the link I will I will buy the book this is all this is it 02:32:52.831 --> 02:32:55.331 so so it's quite overlaps quite nicely, 02:32:55.871 --> 02:33:01.151 so I have a book review yeah wow book review yeah so book review so then so 02:33:01.151 --> 02:33:06.451 hopefully I get the audio out you know before the end of the year and then probably 02:33:06.451 --> 02:33:08.451 the tapes in january cool. 02:33:08.451 --> 02:33:10.011 Cool looking forward. 02:33:10.011 --> 02:33:12.751 Yeah this one should be fun should be fun yeah and then 02:33:12.751 --> 02:33:16.791 i'll try the pepper in uh try to set like a christmas mood so maybe some like 02:33:16.791 --> 02:33:21.131 fire crackling fire crackling in the background introduce it with like some 02:33:21.131 --> 02:33:25.551 uh you know lounge christmas lounge kind of music and try to try to set the 02:33:25.551 --> 02:33:30.251 the audios yeah i don't i don't know if i'll sing yet but we'll see. 02:33:32.751 --> 02:33:35.871 Cool cool all right this has been fun. 02:33:35.871 --> 02:33:36.871 Yeah yeah. 02:33:36.871 --> 02:33:48.091 Head over to bitpunk.fm to hear the episodes of bitpunk.fm and and option plus 02:33:48.091 --> 02:33:51.931 podcast is at optionplus.io.